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16-yr-old voters in US?

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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by zyffyr   » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:12 pm

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If you can't be trusted sign a contract, you sure as hell can't be trusted to vote.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:39 pm

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In the end, voters decide who pays taxes, how much they pay, and how those taxes are spent. If a substantial percentage of voters don't pay taxes, raising taxes won't affect them directly. They won't have any personal reason not to vote for higher and higher taxes on 'the rich'. They'll vote to spend those taxes on programs that benefit themselves. In other words, 'bread and circuses'.

The people who have to pay the taxes should decide how much, and how they are to be spent. Those with a stake in the outcome.

Michael Everett wrote:The problem is that as soon as you start restricting a franchise, you had better put in some Adamantium-level protections to prevent the restrictions being adjusted, or you will eventually end up with a Kleptocracy where only those worth enough to bribe their way into power are allowed to vote.

Something to watch for, but since the voters would have to pay all the taxes, it would be a largely self-limiting problem.

As it is now, the Dolists are exploited for votes. Bought off with our money by politicians promising them 'bread and circuses' when you parse out all the double-speak. 'Free' college. 'Free' loans. 'Free' medical care.

All lies! Nothing that requires labor or resources is free. It's double-speak for 'somebody else is going to be robbed to pay for it'.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Daryl   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:05 am

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I spent quite a few years with the Australian Army, and can vouch that the members (and later veterans) are no smarter or more civic minded than anyone else. No dumber either.
As to the net tax idea, it is easily shot down by a simple example, an intelligent hard working person contributes to society all his life, then retires and receives slightly more pension than he pays back. Should he be excluded from voting?
Should be all adults who are citizens, not at that moment in prison, and of sound mind. Hey I'd pass in all the historical examples - white, adult, male, land owner, citizen, net tax payer, ex military service, from the right family. Yet I don't claim a uniquely correct view on politics.

alphapatch wrote:
cthia wrote:Should the legal national voting age be lowered to 16 in the US, mimicking some other countries? It was shot down in Washington, D.C., this week.

Some cities have already lowered the voting age for local elections.

Actually, I am of the opinion the right to vote should be further restricted. Maybe a system where the only ones who can vote are military veterans. Or only people who pay more in income tax than they get back.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Annachie   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:33 am

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Actually Imaginos.

Free college (should be free education including trade schools) and free health all historically benifit society more than they cost.
Especially education.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:01 am

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Annachie wrote:Actually Imaginos.

Free college (should be free education including trade schools) and free health all historically benifit society more than they cost.
Especially education.

:? Not sure if trolling or not paying attention to spelling...
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by noblehunter   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:00 pm

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The idea of linking voting to taxes raises some interesting questions. Does owning a corporation which pays taxes count towards a person's tax penalty? What about any benefits the business receives from the government? What happens to the idea of targeted tax breaks? What about consumption taxes?
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:54 pm

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Annachie wrote:Free college (should be free education including trade schools) and free health all historically benifit society more than they cost.

You’ve got a point, but the US government has demonstrated that it is not competent to run either schools or hospitals. The harder politicians and bureaucrats try to ‘fix’ them, the more they fuck them up. It’s no coincidence that education and health care costs have increased four times faster than everything else for the last thirty years as the government tried to ‘help’. Nor that the quality of both has deteriorated at the same time.

The more those costs spiral out of control, the more the government tries to ‘help’ people pay for them, and the completely predictable response from both medicine and education is: “It’s a-rainin’ money! Git a bigger bucket!” The only competition is to see who can raise their prices fastest and get the most of that ‘free’ money.

Daryl wrote:As to the net tax idea, it is easily shot down by a simple example, an intelligent hard working person contributes to society all his life, then retires and receives slightly more pension than he pays back. Should he be excluded from voting?

Why should he be getting that pension from the government? Didn't he save and invest any money over all that time? Didn't he buy a house? Has he got nothing to show for all that work? If not, why should he be deciding how to run the country when he failed to run his own life successfully?

noblehunter wrote:Does owning a corporation which pays taxes count towards a person's tax penalty?

No. The corporation's finances depend on a lot of people. Sorting out who gets how much credit in that situation is an open invitation to corruption.

noblehunter wrote:What happens to the idea of targeted tax breaks?

Around these parts, 'targeted tax breaks' are given to those corporations that provide sufficient 'contributions' to the right politicians. The rest of us know them as 'loopholes' and the tax code has far too many of them already.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:28 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Daryl wrote:I spent quite a few years with the Australian Army, and can vouch that the members (and later veterans) are no smarter or more civic minded than anyone else. No dumber either.
As to the net tax idea, it is easily shot down by a simple example, an intelligent hard working person contributes to society all his life, then retires and receives slightly more pension than he pays back. Should he be excluded from voting?
Should be all adults who are citizens, not at that moment in prison, and of sound mind. Hey I'd pass in all the historical examples - white, adult, male, land owner, citizen, net tax payer, ex military service, from the right family. Yet I don't claim a uniquely correct view on politics.








There was a time when the qualifications to vote I. Some states were:

White

Male.

Own land,

Own guns,

Own slaves.

Didn't work out perfectly.
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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Joat42   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:13 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:You’ve got a point, but the US government has demonstrated that it is not competent to run either schools or hospitals. The harder politicians and bureaucrats try to ‘fix’ them, the more they fuck them up. It’s no coincidence that education and health care costs have increased four times faster than everything else for the last thirty years as the government tried to ‘help’. Nor that the quality of both has deteriorated at the same time.

The more those costs spiral out of control, the more the government tries to ‘help’ people pay for them, and the completely predictable response from both medicine and education is: “It’s a-rainin’ money! Git a bigger bucket!” The only competition is to see who can raise their prices fastest and get the most of that ‘free’ money.

It's easy to blame the government, but the real blame lies at the voters. If they keep voting for incumbent politicians and parties you will get a dysfunctional government - especially considering how the incumbents get most of their financing from special interest groups and corporations.

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Re: 16-yr-old voters in US?
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:40 pm

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Joat42 wrote:It's easy to blame the government, but the real blame lies at the voters. If they keep voting for incumbent politicians and parties you will get a dysfunctional government - especially considering how the incumbents get most of their financing from special interest groups and corporations.

And those incumbents are the ones in a position to bribe far too many voters with 'bread and circuses' paid for with our tax money. The ones swilling at the public trough are outvoting those of us who have to keep it filled.

Of course the incumbents are also supported by the public education unions and the health insurance companies that reap so many benefits from their unmatched incompetence.

US politics is becoming almost entirely a closed system, nearly as insulated from the real world as Weber's Mandarins. There have been other closed political systems — Rome in the 6th century, France in the 18th, Russia in the early 20th. Things did not end well for any of them.
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