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Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?

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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:18 pm

TFLYTSNBN

A slightly altered quote that you might recognize:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that the United States shall pay no price, bear no burden, meet no hardship, support no friend, oppose no foe to assure the survival and the success of anyone's liberty except its own."
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:36 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Another Quote, unaletered.

"AND NOW, FRIENDS AND COUNTRYMEN, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?

Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.

She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.

She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.

She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.

But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.

She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....

She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[America’s] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by Daryl   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:59 am

Daryl
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Wow, the US has surely forgotten this bit "She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations".
How many directly invaded, how many have had their political systems corrupted, how many pressurized to follow the US or else, how much industrial blackmail, how many puppet or proxy governments? Lots more.
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:40 am

Dilandu
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Well, its just means that Europe would be forced to rely on their own devices. Doubt that it would be much problem for France to increase the nuclear arsenal and lease bombs to Italy and Germany.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:40 am

TFLYTSNBN

Daryl wrote:Wow, the US has surely forgotten this bit "She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations".
How many directly invaded, how many have had their political systems corrupted, how many pressurized to follow the US or else, how much industrial blackmail, how many puppet or proxy governments? Lots more.


That is actually a valid point. Prior to the Spanish-American war, the US was very averse to foreign adventures. Once America became saddled with Spain's colonies, we had to either grant them independence as in Cuba or manage them as in the Philippines which we were trying to get rid of. Most Americans would eagerly grant independence to Peurto Rico but the Peurto Ricans want to remain a US dependent.

US interventionism became even more common when we served as global cop to fight the Cold War. We got involved in a bunch of quagmires like Korea and Vietnam to contain the Soviet Union. The US was obligated to fight the first Gulf War because we were almost as dependant on foreign oil as our allies. The US could have gotten along just fine by seizing Canada's oil, Mexico's oil and Venezuela's oil and let Europeans, Japanese, Koreans and Australians fend for themselves. You guys would have given Saddam Hussein everything he needed to build nukes to get his oil. You also would have had no problem with a nuclear armed Iraq nuking Israel. Heck, you would have cursed the Jews for retaliating because it would have cut off your oil supply.
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:50 am

TFLYTSNBN

Read both quotes and note the profound change in Political Philosophy between the early 19th century vs post WW2. Kennedy was an interventionst. The other guy whom I will not yet identify was an isolationist who would have been appalled by Kennedy, Eisenhower and NATO. He would have rightly pointed out that the US could have remained uninvolved in WW2 if we had not held the Philippines as a territory that Japan wanted to seize. Under him, the US would have sat out WW1 and WW2 just like the US sat out the Crimean war. Americans could have just eaten popcorn as we watched you foreigners slaughter each other.
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:14 pm

Dilandu
Admiral

Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
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[quote="TFLYTSNBN" Americans could have just eaten popcorn as we watched you foreigners slaughter each other.[/quote]

...And then USA would suddenly found, that they are isolated from most of world trade, their grip over Western Hemisphere is declining, and they do not have military power to protect their interests.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Dilandu wrote:[quote="TFLYTSNBN" Americans could have just eaten popcorn as we watched you foreigners slaughter each other.


...And then USA would suddenly found, that they are isolated from most of world trade, their grip over Western Hemisphere is declining, and they do not have military power to protect their interests.[/quote]


I don't recall the US finding itself isolated and lacking military power after remaining uninvolved in the Crimean War. You must have the US confused with... Russia.

Ditto for WW1 and WW2.

If the US had not intervened against Germany, Russia probably would not have survived WW1 much less WW2. A victorious Germany would have been to busy exterminating Slavic people's to mess with the US.
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:36 pm

isaac_newton
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
SNIP The US could have gotten along just fine by seizing Canada's oil, Mexico's oil and Venezuela's oil .


:roll: :roll: :roll:

even the first born child of Trump & John Bolton wouldn't propose that one...

hmmmm - how did it go again...
She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.
Last edited by isaac_newton on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nuclear Proliferation after NATO's demise?
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:44 pm

Dilandu
Admiral

Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
I don't recall the US finding itself isolated and lacking milit


During Crimean War, the USA were just the second-to-third rate power, which position on the Crimean War matters worried only Britain due to Canadian border.

By XX century, USA was the world superpower, who could not just let events to "work themselves out". Because it would quite easily led to losing superpower status in favor of some other power.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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