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CO2 sanity

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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:37 pm

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Actually a good article on wind turbines.

There is areson why windmills like helicopters tend to have limited number of blades. The issuesare limited disc loading and effeciency.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Daryl   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:50 pm

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My understanding of the Tesla battery's function is that it is more like a capacitor or shock absorber than a storage system, just on a large scale. It enables a stable system voltage by smoothing out the peaks.
On the vexed question of man made climate change, I follow the logic tree.
Does the climate change over time? Yes.
Is this due to a number of factors? Yes.
Could industrialised mankinds's action be one factor? Yes.
Is this factor significant? This is the crux, but I follow the experts and also after much world wide travel look at the immense scale of our actions, so Yes.
Is this part of the change detrimental? Yes overall, as it is more rapid than ecologies can adjust smoothly for. Some regions may actually benefit, but most will suffer
Can we limit the change and subsequental damage? Yes, but it will take a big effort.
Will our efforts have any side benefits? Yes. More efficient cars, homes and industries, plus less other pollution as well. If the western world weans itself off petroleum, it will mean less money for terrorism.

Joat42 wrote:
Annachie wrote:The thing with wind power, well things really, are you need hydro accumulators as a battery source, and as a power source it's up and down times are predictable.
Similar with solar systems.

In Oz, well the southern part, our coal plants aren't predictable because so many of them are so old.

Luckily you got the Tesla Powerpack project down there that picks up the slack. And it also pays for itself by keeping the frequency much more stable and that reduced the grid service cost by 90%.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Fireflair   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:05 pm

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On the windmill topic I'm fairly certain that the engineers of such devices, along with their corporate overlords, have already evaluated for blade length, pitch and number of blades against varying wind conditions, costs and materials. So whatever the set up is in your area it's likely the optimal, or close to it, for price vs efficiency.

On petroleum the US and the EU have both been trending downward on usage for the last 10 or 15 years while China has sky rocketed. Followed by India. China alone consumes almost as much oil as the EU. The US is still the number one country by raw barrels of oil per day and per capita. As India and China have industrialized that is quickly changing. Industry in India and China are well known for being environmentally unfriendly and unsafe with very bad dumping practices as well as emissions.

If you look at emissions, China exceeds the EU and US combined. And it's only getting worse, not better. India is also accelerating, generating more emissions than Russia.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Annachie   » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:09 am

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Not quite, though it does function as a smoother.

The Jamestown battery should be able to power 30,000 homes for 8 hours.

Or cover an entire state for a couple of minutes when a coal plant went down and the rest of the generators needed adjusting up. :)
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by aairfccha   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:58 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Torque x RPM = Power. More torque means you can draw more current from the alternator without slowing it down. More current at the same voltage is more power.

Only if you can keep the RPM up. This graph (cp - fraction of the wind's total power a device can harvest, λ - ratio of blade tip speed to wind speed) indicates you can't, at least in a useful fashion.

Imaginos1892 wrote:Four more blades won't make the foundation, tower or alternator assembly cost any more,


You need the blades themselves, a stronger hub, stronger bearings, possibly a stronger pitch mechanism and both tower and foundation have not only to support the weight but also the increased wind load.

Imaginos1892 wrote:and will approximately double torque, therefore power output.

Only with constant RPM.

Imaginos1892 wrote:Take a look at a picture — 98% of the wind just passes between those 3 blades without doing any work at all.

This static view is a little misleading, most wind turbines are lift based not drag based.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:19 pm

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The blades are identical, therefore tip speed and blade loading have to be exactly the same, too.

A windmill with zero blades generates zero power. A windmill with one blade generates some power. How can that progression not continue? The only way adding more blades would not generate more power is if they get too close-spaced and interfere with each other’s airflow. Seven blades would not do that.

Each added blade would add less power. I get that. But seven blades should still be on the rising side of that equation.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:38 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:A windmill with one blade generates some power.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wow. Someone failed to understand the role that gravity plays in such a situation.
A windmill with one blade is known as a Pendulum.
You need at least two blades located at equal points around the central mounting to ensure that the center of gravity for the blades is located at the point of rotation. If the blades are off-center, the shifting of mass may end up ripping the windmill apart. This is made even more complicated by the turbulence caused by the support pillar, the interactions between it and the blades can cause destructive harmonics at certain wind-speeds and even numbers of blades would create a lateral sheer due to this, thus making the windmill far more likely to crack and topple.

For generator windmills, you need to balance the tensile strength of the windmill blades, the rigidity of the support beam, the cost of the generator, the cost of the materials used in the blades, the strength of the connection points, how it is affected by abnormal wind conditions, how likely it is to kill birds, the sounds it produces at different speeds and how it could affect people...
The current three-blade setup is the result of both physical and financial optimization over the last several decades.
Of course, open-helix-style wind turbines work for wind in any lateral direction, but there are several problems with the vertical mounting that make them currently impractical for widespread usage...
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:45 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:A windmill with one blade generates some power.

Wow. Someone failed to understand the role that gravity plays in such a situation.
A windmill with one blade is known as a Pendulum.

NASA built a windmill with one blade in 1985. Look it up. And don't be an asshole.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by The E   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:57 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Wow. Someone failed to understand the role that gravity plays in such a situation.
A windmill with one blade is known as a Pendulum.
You need at least two blades located at equal points around the central mounting to ensure that the center of gravity for the blades is located at the point of rotation.


Or you do what the people working on those concepts did and put a counterweight where the second blade would be.

The whole thing wasn't bogus; windmills based on the concept were definitely viable electricity generators - of course, the whole idea was based around the difficulty of sourcing quality blades in the 70s and 80s, so when that particular production bottleneck disappeared, triple-bladed mills became the standard.
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Re: CO2 sanity
Post by The E   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:19 pm

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By the way, speaking of Happer:

https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview ... ojections/

https://climatefeedback.org/claimreview ... lant-life/

Hey, TFLY, how about you use your ~superior understanding~ of the science to show how those articles are wrong? Lesser minds want to know.
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