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Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.

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Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by gcomeau   » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:53 am

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Debate over. Trump is a racist. There is no more debating that point after his remarks in Europe. No more bullshit excuses pretending he's only talking about respecting immigration laws and this has nothing to do with not wanting specific groups of people to be able to immigrate to the country at all. I lost count of how many excuse making posts there were while Trump was going on his constant anti immigrant rants from Trump supporters saying "oh no, he's only against ILLEGAL immigration.... he wants us to respect the law! Law and Order! Not racism!"

No matter how obvious his animus against specific groups of people was, that was the fig leaf people kept trying to cover it up with. That's all done.

Because he didn't go over there and criticize illegal immigrants entering Europe. No he said it was very very sad they were allowing people to immigrate there from African nations legally. Bemoaned how it was changing their "culture".

That is pure, textbook, White Supremacist language. No more pretending he is interested in just enforcing the laws. Those migrants are following the laws and he hates seeing them immigrating into predominantly white nations and changing their makeup anyway.

So I'm all done putting up with any hand wringing from Trump apologists who protest when we point out they elected a racist to be president. If you support Trump you support a racist. And you're getting called on it. If you don't like it STOP SUPPORTING RACISTS.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:36 am

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Wait! What? He's never hidden it!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by gcomeau   » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:41 pm

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cthia wrote:Wait! What? He's never hidden it!


Well, "hidden" it in the sense he acts racist then walks it back and denies it was because of racism and repeats that dance back and forth and back and forth...

This time he effectively just flat out declared he's a racist.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:18 pm

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I'm certain that those of us not in his cult spotted it very, very quickly.
We also spotted that he's rather sexist in addition to racist.

...why do I feel that there are some people still in denial?
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:25 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:I'm certain that those of us not in his cult spotted it very, very quickly.
We also spotted that he's rather sexist in addition to racist.

...why do I feel that there are some people still in denial?

Some SMaRt people?
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Fireflair   » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 pm

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The comments he made don't make him essentially racist (Not that I doubt that he is mind you) but they do make him chauvinistic. Not as in male chauvinistic (which he probably is too!) but as in its original meaning, which is an exaggerated patriotism and a belligerent belief in national superiority and glory.

And to a degree I sympathize with the idea though not his methodology. There is a strong reason for the support of the side that wishes foreigners would not come into a country, any country. They like the culture of the country where they live as it is and do not want to see it diluted or changed. Any immigrants coming into a country will certainly change the nature of the country. Enough immigrants could see the entire culture of the country change.

The argument in favor of denying immigrants relies heavily on this. The corollary to it is that if immigrants want to come into a country because the place they were leaving was so horrible perhaps they should be the one to change. What was failing them where they are should not be brought to where they are going to, otherwise they're just re-creating the system that they ran away from before.

Trump is not the only person who feels that immigrants should conform to the society they are joining. Many Americans feel this way because they don't want to see their way of life drastically changed. It doesn't have anything to do with being xenophobic, racist or a white supremacist. It has everything to do with keeping the culture they know and support.

For example, many Americans are very supportive of Muslims moving to the US because, hey! Religious freedom, tolerance and everyone deserves a chance, right? But they also bring with them baggage that is very central to their lives, such as their religious obligations, clothing and expected behaviors. When these things are brought up, most Americans would get very indignant about being forced to conform to Muslim standards in their own country. The expectation is that since these Muslim immigrants came here they should conform to the US's standards and find ways to get along, regardless of their cultural baggage.

Many Muslims in France see the giving up of their culture as necessary to take full advantage of what being a French citizen means. They don't want to do that. The French government has a tradition of secular schools but Muslim women wear hijabs to class and it has caused a fervor because of teachers objecting to dress that is required by religion. There's been any number of cases circling around this in France since the late 80's.

Only a quarter of French citizens believe that Muslims are compatible with French society as a whole, where as more than three quarters of the French believe that Catholicism and Judaism is compatible.

A good example of this is that in April 2018 an Algerian Muslim woman refused to shake hands with the official on religious grounds. As an applicant must demonstrate being integrated into society as well as respect for French values, officials considered her not integrated and denied her citizenship application.

There are more than a few points which are contentious when bringing immigrants of any stripe into a country. The fact that Trump is against immigrants in general doesn't make him racist (though he probably is!) as there are plenty of people who simply don't want to see their culture change without being racist.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:35 am

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The irony being that America, and indeed Australia England and too many others to name, has a history of immigrants not conforming to the existing society/culture.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Daryl   » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:50 am

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Rather than repost your comment I'll say that I concur with you Fireflair.
A couple of points though. Muslims make up just 1% of the US population, and it's reasonable to assume that they have a fair number of nominally religious people among their ranks. So while I find the sight of a Burqua to be confronting, it seems unlikely that they will change US society greatly overall.
The second point is that some invigorating influences can enhance a society. A daughter in law of mine was born and raised in the Phillipines and has brought new food choices and a positive attitude into our family.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by The E   » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:25 am

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Fireflair wrote:And to a degree I sympathize with the idea though not his methodology. There is a strong reason for the support of the side that wishes foreigners would not come into a country, any country. They like the culture of the country where they live as it is and do not want to see it diluted or changed. Any immigrants coming into a country will certainly change the nature of the country. Enough immigrants could see the entire culture of the country change.


In my experience, nativists and nationalists do many things, but "liking their culture" is not one of them.

They sure talk a lot about it, yes, but once you get down to interrogating their beliefs about what they like about their culture, it more often than not turns out to be some chimeric ideal that has never actually existed rather than the actual culture that they do live in.

The added hilariousness and unconscious hypocrisy that happens when americans in particular start whining about how immigrants destroy american culture is delicious, too.

The argument in favor of denying immigrants relies heavily on this. The corollary to it is that if immigrants want to come into a country because the place they were leaving was so horrible perhaps they should be the one to change. What was failing them where they are should not be brought to where they are going to, otherwise they're just re-creating the system that they ran away from before.


Again, in my experience, most immigrants know intellectually that they won't be able to live their lives exactly as they did in their country of origin. But knowing that and applying it to a lifetime of lived experience are different things.

Trump is not the only person who feels that immigrants should conform to the society they are joining. Many Americans feel this way because they don't want to see their way of life drastically changed. It doesn't have anything to do with being xenophobic, racist or a white supremacist. It has everything to do with keeping the culture they know and support.


But what they actually end up doing is measuring immigrants against what they think an ideal american is like and blaming them when they aren't.

As stated above, noone emigrates to another country expecting it to be just as it was back home. But, on the flipside, noone emigrates to another country expecting to change everything about themselves just to fit in.
If you want to accept immigrants, you need to accept that they will not abandon their entire upbringing just because you do not happen to like being reminded of the fact that other religions and cultures exist.

For example, many Americans are very supportive of Muslims moving to the US because, hey! Religious freedom, tolerance and everyone deserves a chance, right? But they also bring with them baggage that is very central to their lives, such as their religious obligations, clothing and expected behaviors. When these things are brought up, most Americans would get very indignant about being forced to conform to Muslim standards in their own country.


Please cite examples of americans being forced to conform to muslim religious precepts.
If you cannot accept that a person may want to wear a burqa, you need to stop and think about what exactly gave you the idea that there's a dress code that you need to enforce.

The expectation is that since these Muslim immigrants came here they should conform to the US's standards and find ways to get along, regardless of their cultural baggage.

Many Muslims in France see the giving up of their culture as necessary to take full advantage of what being a French citizen means. They don't want to do that. The French government has a tradition of secular schools but Muslim women wear hijabs to class and it has caused a fervor because of teachers objecting to dress that is required by religion. There's been any number of cases circling around this in France since the late 80's.


Muslims do not see giving up their religion as a necessity. The French Government does. This is an important difference.

Only a quarter of French citizens believe that Muslims are compatible with French society as a whole, where as more than three quarters of the French believe that Catholicism and Judaism is compatible.

A good example of this is that in April 2018 an Algerian Muslim woman refused to shake hands with the official on religious grounds. As an applicant must demonstrate being integrated into society as well as respect for French values, officials considered her not integrated and denied her citizenship application.


And if you can't see how these standards are as bad and arbitrary as the literacy tests US officials handed out to black americans so they can prove their ability to vote, I don't know that to tell you.

There are more than a few points which are contentious when bringing immigrants of any stripe into a country. The fact that Trump is against immigrants in general doesn't make him racist (though he probably is!) as there are plenty of people who simply don't want to see their culture change without being racist.


It is impossible to be against immigration without being racist.
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Re: Trump is a racist. He isn't even hiding it anymore.
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:42 am

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The E wrote:It is impossible to be against immigration without being racist.

...yes and no.

Immigration increases the demand for homes, school places, hospital beds etc etc. If a country has limited resources to provide such things, then cutting down on immigration is sensible since it buys more time to find ways of expanding said resources, increasing the chances of finding a solution.

Immigrants themselves generally fall into one of four categories, although there can be and often is significant overlap.
The first is the War-zone Immigrant. Forced to leave their home due to violence, they seek a more peaceful place to settle down where they won't wake up dead simply because they were the wrong color/religion/ethnic minority.
The second is the Working Immigrant. These are the ones who seek to create a new life for themselves via their own efforts and abilities. A significant percentage of doctors and nurses in the NHS fall into this.
The third is the Family Immigrant. The husband/wife/child of the one moving, who comes along with them.
The fourth type is the one that unfortunately gives rise to the negative stereotype. The Parasitic Immigrant. Also sometimes called the Economic Migrant (a misnomer, the EM is actually a type 2), the Parasitic Immigrant is one that either claims money from the government because they can or engages in criminal activity detrimental to the country that they are in.

While the first three types are generally to be welcomed (barring significant resource-allocation issues as mentioned before), it is the fourth type that makes the news in ways that tars the whole concept of Immigration with the muck of theft, murder, rape and drug-dealing. As such, many people have come to equate the concept of Immigrant as being synonymous with the Parasitic Immigrant subgroup, which is wrong but sadly a very easy mistake to make.
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