Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

Dreamers

The Management is not responsible for the contents of this forum. Enter at your own risk.
Dreamers
Post by Annachie   » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:45 am

Annachie
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3099
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm

"Dreamers have mountains they will climb
There are dreamers who don't believe in time
Only dreamers have worlds where they can fly far away

Certain dreamers have kingdoms they will build
Filled with treasures and dragons to be killed
Only dreamers have wings with which to fly far away"

So, what paths to citizenship should they be given?

Personally, being a huge fan of Starship Troopers, a term of military service sounds like a fantastic way.

Not just military either.

Similar time served in the fire brigade, as a paramedic, or a police force should count too.

A step further, aquiring qualification as a Nurse or Doctor?

A Teacher?

Merely having a full time job?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: Dreamers
Post by cthia   » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:29 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

IMHO, simply the motivation to become a citizen should be enough if it isn't a veiled attempt at hiding from past misdeeds or crimes, if said applicant for citizenship can display that he/she has learned the language, history and customs, is healthy and has some means of supporting him or herself.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Dreamers
Post by biochem   » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:36 pm

biochem
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:06 pm
Location: USA

The problem is that if it easy then more people will break the law bringing their children in with the hope that they will one day be legalized. I.e. the same type of problem when Reagan decided to legalize illegals who were long term US residents. So there is a definite case for making the process difficult.

Military - classic path to citizenship (French foreign legion among other provide precedent) something like 10 years (3 if in a combat zone).

Law enforcement and fire department - similarly putting their lives at risk to protect the public. Probably we'd need some definitions as to what qualifies. What about fire fighters or law enforcement who just have a desk job? Also, some rural areas have volunteer fire departments. Do those qualify? They can be highly variable. Most are very professional, but there are some that aren't. Plus someone could invent a volunteer "fire department" that was more or less a fraud just to qualify people for citizenship.

EMTs - job descriptions too variable

The above list is also very male centric. There are females in these occupations but not many.

Teacher - only if limited. Historically for various government programs the limit has been underserved areas i.e. slums and some Native American Reservations (the poverty stricken ones).
Top
Re: Dreamers
Post by pappilon   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

biochem wrote:The problem is that if it easy then more people will break the law bringing their children in with the hope that they will one day be legalized. I.e. the same type of problem when Reagan decided to legalize illegals who were long term US residents. So there is a definite case for making the process difficult.

Military - classic path to citizenship (French foreign legion among other provide precedent) something like 10 years (3 if in a combat zone).

Law enforcement and fire department - similarly putting their lives at risk to protect the public. Probably we'd need some definitions as to what qualifies. What about fire fighters or law enforcement who just have a desk job? Also, some rural areas have volunteer fire departments. Do those qualify? They can be highly variable. Most are very professional, but there are some that aren't. Plus someone could invent a volunteer "fire department" that was more or less a fraud just to qualify people for citizenship.

EMTs - job descriptions too variable

The above list is also very male centric. There are females in these occupations but not many.

Teacher - only if limited. Historically for various government programs the limit has been underserved areas i.e. slums and some Native American Reservations (the poverty stricken ones).



First problem is that entering the US illegally is not a criminal offense. Deportation cases are not tried in criminal court. people being held for deportation are not arrested, they are detained. This is why law enforcement can not legally act to arrest illegal immigrants, or hold them in jail when their sentence is complete for INS to pick them up.

They are tried before "administrative judges" like tax evaders are, like unemployment appeals are heard.

After that is these people were children when their parents brought them here, good parents for not abandoning their kids?

The kids had no choice and probably had no idea what their parents were doing. They were caught in the middle as innocent victims,and the US is he only home they know. There should be a path to citizenship for them, but at the very least, they should be granted at least limited permanent residence status.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Dreamers
Post by zyffyr   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:01 pm

zyffyr
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:26 pm

pappilon wrote: First problem is that entering the US illegally is not a criminal offense. Deportation cases are not tried in criminal court. people being held for deportation are not arrested, they are detained. This is why law enforcement can not legally act to arrest illegal immigrants, or hold them in jail when their sentence is complete for INS to pick them up.


This is only partially true. It actually depends on HOW they entered the country.

8 USC 1325 provides for criminal charges (6 month misdemeanor for first offense, actual felony charges for multiple) for those who entry itself was contrary to proper procedures. If the entry was "Crossed the Rio Grande in the middle of nowhere", they are covered and it really is a crime.

For those who initial entry was legal but then overstayed their legal welcome, you are correct. This covers things like "Entered on a Student VISA, but stayed after graduation", or "Came as a tourist, but didn't go home".


They are tried before "administrative judges" like tax evaders are, like unemployment appeals are heard.


So, you don't think that Tax Evasion is a crime with potential jail time?

After that is these people were children when their parents brought them here, good parents for not abandoning their kids?

The kids had no choice and probably had no idea what their parents were doing. They were caught in the middle as innocent victims,and the US is he only home they know. There should be a path to citizenship for them, but at the very least, they should be granted at least limited permanent residence status.


I mostly agree with this. There is the small problem that DACA covers people who entered up to the age of 15. When you are talking about a 5 or 6 year old kid, they really do only know the US. For a 15 year old? The idea that they only ever knew the US and probably don't even know the language from back home is asinine at best. I would, however, still let them stay since it wasn't really their choice.

We also have the small problem that despite the requirement to regularly reapply, there was little to no effort to actually enforce the requirements. Specifically, sections 6 and 7 of the requirements were systematically ignored.

Department of Homeland Security wrote: 6. Are currently in school, have graduated or obtained a certificate of completion from high school, have obtained a General Educational Development (GED) certificate, or are an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard or Armed Forces of the United States; and
7. Have not been convicted of a felony, a significant misdemeanor, three or more other misdemeanors, and do not otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety.


For the most part the former "Dreamers" who are getting deported are ones whose renewals had been approved despite not actually being qualified due to those sections.
Top
Re: Dreamers
Post by pappilon   » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:23 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

zyffyr wrote:For the most part the former "Dreamers" who are getting deported are ones whose renewals had been approved despite not actually being qualified due to those sections.



This administration doesn't really care. If you are not here legally you are subject to deportation. And I really don't care one way or the other. I guess my family got grandfathered in as we were here before the Louisiana Purchase.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top

Return to Politics