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Haiti

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Haiti
Post by biochem   » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:06 pm

biochem
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Location: USA

So what do we do about Haiti? The country is a mess and the government is the definition of dysfunctional.

Possibilities:

1. Nothing it's their country and their problem (although given the number of people that want to escape to the USA, that could be disputed.)

2. Tough love - bar all USA based aid (including private aid which is an enormous percentage of Haiti's economy) to attempt to force them to get their house in order. The advocates of this method belief that in our attempts to alleviate suffering we are actually causing suffering by keeping them just functional enough not to change.

3. Nation build. Like we are so good at that (sarcasm).



Given that all of the above options are not particularly desirable, how about trying something different??



4. Outsource nation building. Daryl keeps claiming that Australia's government works far better than the USA's. Why not try something different and outsource it to Australia?
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Re: Haiti
Post by smr   » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:19 pm

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All for outsourcing to Australia!

biochem wrote:So what do we do about Haiti? The country is a mess and the government is the definition of dysfunctional.

Possibilities:

1. Nothing it's their country and their problem (although given the number of people that want to escape to the USA, that could be disputed.)

2. Tough love - bar all USA based aid (including private aid which is an enormous percentage of Haiti's economy) to attempt to force them to get their house in order. The advocates of this method belief that in our attempts to alleviate suffering we are actually causing suffering by keeping them just functional enough not to change.

3. Nation build. Like we are so good at that (sarcasm).



Given that all of the above options are not particularly desirable, how about trying something different??



4. Outsource nation building. Daryl keeps claiming that Australia's government works far better than the USA's. Why not try something different and outsource it to Australia?
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Re: Haiti
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:26 am

Daryl
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Location: Queensland Australia

In virtually every military expedition for decades Australia has been the first to line up with the US.
We do have an uplifting mission aspect with numerous very small South Pacific island nations, which is slow heavy work. There is a tendency for the locals to sit back and hope you'll do it all for them. China has recently been quite critical of our "overlording".
Not interested in taking on more thanks.
Now for the record I'm often critical of the government in Australia, and there are some things we could take from your system. The 8 years or two terms for your Presidents would suit our Prime Ministers, your ability to bring in subject matter experts to Cabinet, as opposed to our system of picking the least worst of sitting members.
Never did say our government works better than yours, sorry if I gave that impression. I did say often that your health, welfare and gun control systems are hopeless by developed world standards.
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Re: Haiti
Post by noblehunter   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:10 pm

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I think the first thing the US should do is recognize that they've played a major role in screwing up Haiti and should undertake not to keep doing it.

As for how to help fix it? Figure that out and you've got a Nobel Peace Prize lined up.
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Re: Haiti
Post by Senior Chief   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:11 pm

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biochem wrote:So what do we do about Haiti? The country is a mess and the government is the definition of dysfunctional.

Possibilities:

1. Nothing it's their country and their problem (although given the number of people that want to escape to the USA, that could be disputed.)

2. Tough love - bar all USA based aid (including private aid which is an enormous percentage of Haiti's economy) to attempt to force them to get their house in order. The advocates of this method belief that in our attempts to alleviate suffering we are actually causing suffering by keeping them just functional enough not to change.

3. Nation build. Like we are so good at that (sarcasm).



Given that all of the above options are not particularly desirable, how about trying something different??



4. Outsource nation building. Daryl keeps claiming that Australia's government works far better than the USA's. Why not try something different and outsource it to Australia?



Perhaps the US should have let the gunboat policy of Germany in 1897 have its way... None of the above are really good options... and the use of USMC in Haiti throughout its history is not something to be proud of.

But think about this... Name me one former Spanish colony/possession that is not full of corruption, bribery, or other unethical practices in their government. IMHO Central and South America countries are terrible with very few exceptions.
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Re: Haiti
Post by biochem   » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:11 pm

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noblehunter wrote:I think the first thing the US should do is recognize that they've played a major role in screwing up Haiti and should undertake not to keep doing it.


Well as best I can tell, most of all of the official government aid simply winds up making those in charge rich, while the people get nothing. So we could stop doing that.

We could also crack down on all of the fake Haiti charities. There are a lot of those, collecting dollars from hardworking Americans and not spending them on the cause for which they were raised. (Subsection of a larger American problem with fake charities in general. They are sprouting like weeds!)

As for how to help fix it? Figure that out and you've got a Nobel Peace Prize lined up.


Or sainthood. Because it may well take divine intervention to fix.
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Re: Haiti
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 pm

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Posts: 1932
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Jimmy Carter.
Bush the Elder.
Every damn reservist who wears a police uniform, in police uniform (uniform uniform of course, and non military. They need to appear as beat cops)
Couple of combat engineer units
A short MEU (as heavy backup)
UN sanctioned Martial law.
Blankish check and no interference from the WH or Capitol Hill.

Walk in, provide a police force and start fixing things.

Meanwhile restart the political process at the grass roots level and let it grow from there.

Jimmy Carter has the reputation as a humanitarian to be the public head.
Bush the elder is hopefully still young enough to run it as his second.

Both have the standing to make it stick, and make the charities donations go where they're supposed to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Haiti
Post by biochem   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:44 am

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Rear Admiral

Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:06 pm
Location: USA

Senior Chief wrote:
biochem wrote:So what do we do about Haiti? The country is a mess and the government is the definition of dysfunctional.

Possibilities:

1. Nothing it's their country and their problem (although given the number of people that want to escape to the USA, that could be disputed.)

2. Tough love - bar all USA based aid (including private aid which is an enormous percentage of Haiti's economy) to attempt to force them to get their house in order. The advocates of this method belief that in our attempts to alleviate suffering we are actually causing suffering by keeping them just functional enough not to change.

3. Nation build. Like we are so good at that (sarcasm).



Given that all of the above options are not particularly desirable, how about trying something different??



4. Outsource nation building. Daryl keeps claiming that Australia's government works far better than the USA's. Why not try something different and outsource it to Australia?



Perhaps the US should have let the gunboat policy of Germany in 1897 have its way... None of the above are really good options... and the use of USMC in Haiti throughout its history is not something to be proud of.

But think about this... Name me one former Spanish colony/possession that is not full of corruption, bribery, or other unethical practices in their government. IMHO Central and South America countries are terrible with very few exceptions.



As a group former British colonies have done the best, with a few individual exceptions. Even in Central America, look at Belize aka British Honduras relative to its neighbors

France colonized Haiti. With some exceptions, French colonies as a group haven't done well.
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Re: Haiti
Post by biochem   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:58 am

biochem
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:06 pm
Location: USA

Annachie wrote:Jimmy Carter.
Bush the Elder.
Every damn reservist who wears a police uniform, in police uniform (uniform uniform of course, and non military. They need to appear as beat cops)
Couple of combat engineer units
A short MEU (as heavy backup)
UN sanctioned Martial law.
Blankish check and no interference from the WH or Capitol Hill.

Walk in, provide a police force and start fixing things.

Meanwhile restart the political process at the grass roots level and let it grow from there.

Jimmy Carter has the reputation as a humanitarian to be the public head.
Bush the elder is hopefully still young enough to run it as his second.

Both have the standing to make it stick, and make the charities donations go where they're supposed to.



Well it would probably improve things for Haiti. And you know things are very bad when a military dictatorship by a foreign power would be an improvement over the current government.

The pathway you cite might work. But it is politically untenable in the USA. There is no way that the politicians would ever keep their greedy paws off of it. After all of the recent disasters, the general public wants zero more nation building. And the media would have a field day when the military shot the kleptocrats for inciting riots, which they would do in an attempt to regain power.

Carter is still available but he is 93.

Bush the elder is at the end of his life. His health is extremely poor and he is suffering from end of life dementia. He is not likely to be with us much longer.
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Re: Haiti
Post by Annachie   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:28 am

Annachie
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1932
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm

That's a pity. I thought his health was a lot better than that. But then I haven't seen or heard much of him lately.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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