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2017

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Re: 2017
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:41 pm

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Countries divided by a single language. To us "alt right" simply means rabidly conservative, with no specific overtones of racism, except for as the E points out there is a tendency fof racists to be ultra conservative. If I remember rightly you have the benefit of mixed heritage yourself, so I never intended to imply you are racist.

Your discussion on your employment and health care illustrates a foreign mindset to me. Why does healthcare have anything to do with employment (I know that's how it is done in the US)?
My supplementary health care is through Defence Health for ex members, but that is a specific situation, and unusual here.
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Re: 2017
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:05 pm

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Even though the E's undisputed experience with National Socialist gives him standing in this context. Nazis are more similar to the more internationist socialist of other stripes than American conservatives. In any case, I'll take your word for what he posted. The ease with which he asserts racism in others has him on my permanent ignore list.

Healthcare has no inherent link to employment. The maintenance cost for organizing a group people to negotiate rates with insurance companies have fallen on employers. My point was nothing stops the government organizing tax and legislative advantages for non-employers to accept membership as if they were employers for the benefit health maintenance and insurance programs. The potential risk pool would be very large and can include unemployed folks as well as self employed folks.

That approach would have helped more people than Obamacare.
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Re: 2017
Post by Annachie   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:30 pm

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You really have no point of contact with reality do you Peter.

No actual concept of history.

Small words.

Nazi's were not socialists.

They were right wing ultra nationalists who who opposed socialism.

They were supremcists who painted other races as the enemy as a way of uniting their own race. Even if some of the people doing the painting were members of one of those peoples.

That is literally a description of the alt-right movement around the world, and a far too large a section of the Trump supporters.
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Re: 2017
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:02 pm

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The only difference between Nazis and other socialists is the Nazis driving socialism toward nationalist goal. Both movements would have the state control the means of production.

I take them at their own words. National Socialist German Workers Party.

As for contact with reality, read how they describe themselves. I don't think their words mean what you think they does.

As for right wing. What the Fisk do you guys mean by that? Conservatism seeks to conserve.....something. In the US, we tend to conserve an originalist interpretation of the Constitution. We've never had a tradition of enshrined classes, so right wing doesn't mean the support of elites as it does abroad. Right wing here is the resistance to a Progressive's need to constantly change everything about the US.

Daryl mentioned something about a separation by a common language. That is more pervasive than you might think, it seem. Of course this only matters when there is a true desire to communicate. Absent that desire, we can enjoy calling each other names or simply ignore each other.


Annachie wrote:You really have no point of contact with reality do you Peter.

No actual concept of history.

Small words.

Nazi's were not socialists.

They were right wing ultra nationalists who who opposed socialism.

They were supremcists who painted other races as the enemy as a way of uniting their own race. Even if some of the people doing the painting were members of one of those peoples.

That is literally a description of the alt-right movement around the world, and a far too large a section of the Trump supporters.
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Re: 2017
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:04 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Even though the E's undisputed experience with National Socialist gives him standing in this context. Nazis are more similar to the more internationist socialist of other stripes than American conservatives. In any case, I'll take your word for what he posted. The ease with which he asserts racism in others has him on my permanent ignore list.

Comparing Nazis to international socialists tells me you really haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

National Socialist is definitely not socialists. Their core-belief is that a nation should be a single race nation where the individual takes second place to the nations interest and through that remove social divisions within the society. That means that anyone or anything upsetting the balance is something that has to be removed from the society.

And that's why people draw the comparison between Nazis and alt-rights, because some of the core-beliefs are the same.

PeterZ wrote:Healthcare has no inherent link to employment. The maintenance cost for organizing a group people to negotiate rates with insurance companies have fallen on employers.

Healthcare has a strong link to employment. If your pool of labor are healthy because of good healthcare a larger portion of them will be employable.
PeterZ wrote:My point was nothing stops the government organizing tax and legislative advantages for non-employers to accept membership as if they were employers for the benefit health maintenance and insurance programs. The potential risk pool would be very large and can include unemployed folks as well as self employed folks.

That approach would have helped more people than Obamacare.

So why hasn't that happened in the US then?

If you look at the history of healthcare in the US it's rife with special interests blocking any kind of generic healthcare system and it's still true today. Trying the approach you are suggesting isn't going to work as long as you have politicians taking "bribes". It's also why you have the most expensive healthcare in the world - someone gotta make a profit.

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Re: 2017
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:19 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The only difference between Nazis and other socialists is the Nazis driving socialism toward nationalist goal. Both movements would have the state control the means of production.

I take them at their own words. National Socialist German Workers Party.

Peter, learn some history and stop spouting uninformed nonsense because what you just said was so stupid it boggles the mind.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: 2017
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:21 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Even though the E's undisputed experience with National Socialist gives him standing in this context. Nazis are more similar to the more internationist socialist of other stripes than American conservatives. In any case, I'll take your word for what he posted. The ease with which he asserts racism in others has him on my permanent ignore list.

Comparing Nazis to international socialists tells me you really haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

National Socialist is definitely not socialists. Their core-belief is that a nation should be a single race nation where the individual takes second place to the nations interest and through that remove social divisions within the society. That means that anyone or anything upsetting the balance is something that has to be removed from the society.

And that's why people draw the comparison between Nazis and alt-rights, because some of the core-beliefs are the same.

PeterZ wrote:Healthcare has no inherent link to employment. The maintenance cost for organizing a group people to negotiate rates with insurance companies have fallen on employers.

Healthcare has a strong link to employment. If your pool of labor are healthy because of good healthcare a larger portion of them will be employable.
PeterZ wrote:My point was nothing stops the government organizing tax and legislative advantages for non-employers to accept membership as if they were employers for the benefit health maintenance and insurance programs. The potential risk pool would be very large and can include unemployed folks as well as self employed folks.

That approach would have helped more people than Obamacare.

So why hasn't that happened in the US then?

If you look at the history of healthcare in the US it's rife with special interests blocking any kind of generic healthcare system and it's still true today. Trying the approach you are suggesting isn't going to work as long as you have politicians taking "bribes". It's also why you have the most expensive healthcare in the world - someone gotta make a profit.


So you agree that both systems seek to subsume social strata within the nation to the state. Nazis have additional motives they seek to advance by subsuming those separations. Yes, they are racists while other socialists aren't. They are more similar to each other than they are American conservatives. We do not seek to subsume anything to the state. We seek to raise the individual as high as possible.

I agree to your description of the alt right. If you further assert that these bozos are more than a tiny percentage of the population, you are whacked. Their representation in states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio is less than negligible.
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Re: 2017
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:23 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The only difference between Nazis and other socialists is the Nazis driving socialism toward nationalist goal. Both movements would have the state control the means of production.

I take them at their own words. National Socialist German Workers Party.

Peter, learn some history and stop spouting uninformed nonsense because what you just said was so stupid it boggles the mind.


Not worth it. Toodles.
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Re: 2017
Post by gcomeau   » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:53 am

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PeterZ wrote:The only difference between Nazis and other socialists is the Nazis driving socialism toward nationalist goal. Both movements would have the state control the means of production.


Oh FFS, this is just cringeworthy.

The Nazis were an ANTI socialist/communist far right wing party.

The first people that went to the concentration camps were the socialists and communists. Jews came after. You might as well be trying to claim Nazis and Jews are basically the same thing!

Here, read some actual history for cripes sake, courtesy of the US holocaust memorial museum ...

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/art ... d=10005144

From its rise to power in 1933, the Nazi regime built a series of detention facilities to imprison and eliminate so-called "enemies of the state." Most prisoners in the early concentration camps were German Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Roma (Gypsies), Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, and persons accused of "asocial" or socially deviant behavior. These facilities were called “concentration camps” because those imprisoned there were physically “concentrated” in one location.
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Re: 2017
Post by The E   » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:10 am

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PeterZ wrote:Even though the E's undisputed experience with National Socialist gives him standing in this context. Nazis are more similar to the more internationist socialist of other stripes than American conservatives. In any case, I'll take your word for what he posted. The ease with which he asserts racism in others has him on my permanent ignore list.


Hey, Pete, if you don't like to be called alt-right, you should really ease off on the "Nazis are socialist because of their name" thing. After all, if all that's needed to make two opposed political philosophies with incidental overlap (in this case, the core concept of collectivism) the same, then you, as a self-professed rabid conservative who agrees with the alt-right on quite a few points, should not be surprised to be lumped in with the alt-right, even if from your perspective you and they have completely different goals.
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