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Should the United States Emulate the Soviets

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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:23 pm

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dscott8 wrote:As a "damned Yankee", I see the Confederacy as treason, armed rebellion against my country. Yes, it's history, but its leaders should not be celebrated by public memorials. You have the right to fly the Stars & Bars on your own property, and I have the right to consider you an asshole for doing so, but no place should be given on public land to monuments for traitors.


Please... It was 150+ years ago. You should either eradicate all positive image of Confederay THEN, or assept it as a part of your cultural heritage now. Trying to stomp on the Confederacy legacy now is just sensless. Believe me, I'm Russian. We tried this. Several times.
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by Starsaber   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:59 pm

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From what I've heard recently, Confederate symbols became popular again in the 1960s in response to the civil rights movement, so it's not a matter of not stomping them out right after the war.
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by dscott8   » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:24 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
dscott8 wrote:As a "damned Yankee", I see the Confederacy as treason, armed rebellion against my country. Yes, it's history, but its leaders should not be celebrated by public memorials. You have the right to fly the Stars & Bars on your own property, and I have the right to consider you an asshole for doing so, but no place should be given on public land to monuments for traitors.


Please... It was 150+ years ago. You should either eradicate all positive image of Confederay THEN, or assept it as a part of your cultural heritage now. Trying to stomp on the Confederacy legacy now is just sensless. Believe me, I'm Russian. We tried this. Several times.


Bullshit. It's never too late to do the right thing. Also, I'm not about to take advice from the land of Putin.
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:55 am

Dilandu
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dscott8 wrote:
Please... It was 150+ years ago. You should either eradicate all positive image of Confederay THEN, or assept it as a part of your cultural heritage now. Trying to stomp on the Confederacy legacy now is just sensless. Believe me, I'm Russian. We tried this. Several times.


Bullshit. It's never too late to do the right thing. .[/quote]

In that case, do the right thing and return all USA lands and property to the indians. :) From which you wrongly took it centuries ago. Come on, its "never too late to do the right things".

The major problem of our kind, is that there are times when its far too late to make things right. And the best you could is to learn what you done wrong.
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by pappilon   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:26 am

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Starsaber wrote:From what I've heard recently, Confederate symbols became popular again in the 1960s in response to the civil rights movement, so it's not a matter of not stomping them out right after the war.


The Knights of the White Camellea died out several years before the KKK did. The KKK is on its 3rd or 4th reincarnation. Actually during the 20s is when a lot of the Statues were erected in places like Iowa, Pennsylvania Ohio and places that were territories during the Civil War. As I posted The United Sons of the Confederacy (yes, I an eligible to join but steadfastly refuse) actually placed a memorial Plaque in a park in (I think) Ridgeland WA.

The 20s resurgence is responsible for the Tulsa OK killing of 80+ blacks, whose lives apparrently don't matter. Now as I thinkabout it the resurection in the 1960 was the 3rd reincarnation, the current Trump inspired one is the 4th.
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:54 am

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pappilon wrote:Being born and raised in The South, I'm torn. Yes it is history and it should not be erased.


Good thing nobody is even trying to do so.

Removing a memorial celebrating atrocity is not erasing history. It's just not celebrating the dregs of humanity anymore. Nobody is stopping anyone from learning about them... it's not like those statues and memorials were put up for educational purposes to teach people about that time a bunch of states wanted to establish a permanent white supremacist slave owning state and went to war against the United States for it as some kind of warning not to let history repeat itself after all.

They put it them up to say "look at these great men our ancestors! Be proud!"

Nobody has trouble remembering WW2 history because there are no statues of Hitler standing tall and proud in the middle of Berlin.

There... no reason to be torn.
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 am

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Dilandu wrote:
dscott8 wrote:As a "damned Yankee", I see the Confederacy as treason, armed rebellion against my country. Yes, it's history, but its leaders should not be celebrated by public memorials. You have the right to fly the Stars & Bars on your own property, and I have the right to consider you an asshole for doing so, but no place should be given on public land to monuments for traitors.


Please... It was 150+ years ago. You should either eradicate all positive image of Confederay THEN, or assept it as a part of your cultural heritage now. Trying to stomp on the Confederacy legacy now is just sensless. Believe me, I'm Russian. We tried this. Several times.


Yeah! Also, stop getting down on Nazis. If we wanted to say they were bad and prevent their influence from spreading and becoming normalized we should have finished off all traces of them in WW2. But they're still around so just accept them and do nothing when they start getting celebrated and rising up again. Too late to do anything about it!


Your advice will be taken under advisement. :roll:
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by pappilon   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:26 pm

pappilon
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gcomeau wrote:They put it them up to say "look at these great men our ancestors! Be proud!"

That would be true if that ere the reason most of those statues were erected. And more specifically when they were erected. Yes I can understand A statue of jefferson Davis outside hishome in Biloxi. Even general Jackson in Jackson square in N.O. honoring his victory in the Battle of New Orleans. But a Statue of R.E Lee in Ames Iowa in 1923? Seriously?
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Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:38 am

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gcomeau, don't be ridiculous and don't invoke Godvin's law. It's rude. :D

Sixty years ago our nations finished the Nazi, cleansed off their evil legacy AND decided that they must never be allowed to rise again. It was decided THEN.

One hundred and fifty years ago YOUR nation decided that "hey, confederates weren't all that bad" and you allowed them to regain parts of their honor and military glory. It was decided THEN. It may be a mistake, from the modern point of view, but it was decided. And NOW, you decided to change all this.

I repeat again: if you wanted to deal with Confederacy memory, you should dealt with them as with the Nazi THEN. One hundred and fifty years ago. Trying to do it NOW - it's just making things totally ridiculous. Because there basically no end in useless attempts to "make old wrongdoings right".

You could bring the dead of Civil War back to life? You could undo the misery of black slaves from history? No? Then you could not "undo the wrong things", no matter how many statues you demolish. The past exist not to "undo it" by some stupid symbolic means, but to learn from past mistakes and never allow the evil to rise again.

If you start to babble about the "symbolic", then I repeat: are you ready to return all the USA lands & property to the indians? Because it would be "right"; your ancestors counquered their lands, your ancestors exterminated their people, your ancestors build all their prosperity on the resources and lands that was taken from indians. So, are you ready to dissolve the USA and gave all the american's property to indians just to remedy the long-past wrongdoing?
------------------------
If power's on your shopping list
Then use the elbow and the fist,
Pummel 'em until they get the gist
Just make an example of
Representative sample of
And most of them will not be missed! (c)
Top
Re: Should the United States Emulate the Soviets
Post by Michael Everett   » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:35 am

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Dilandu wrote:If you start to babble about the "symbolic", then I repeat: are you ready to return all the USA lands & property to the indians? Because it would be "right"; your ancestors counquered their lands, your ancestors exterminated their people, your ancestors build all their prosperity on the resources and lands that was taken from indians. So, are you ready to dissolve the USA and gave all the american's property to indians just to remedy the long-past wrongdoing?

This cartoon seems appropriate...
Image
When trying to make up for the past, where do you stop? Do you assess the situation by today's societal norms or by the culture that was in existence at the time of the events in question?

How far back will you go to avoid accusations of hypocrisy?

Where do you draw the lines?
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
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