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The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions

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The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:43 pm

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So Trump went out and ranted at how much he doesn't want Jeff Sessions to be Attorney General AGAIN. And AGAIN he came right out and said why, because he followed the instructions of the Justice Departments ethics division and recused himself from personally involving himself in an investigation he was too close to.

So to be absolutely clear. Trump is pissed off he has an Attorney General who follows ethics guidance instead of meddling in an investigation into Trump the way Trump wants him to. The Justice Department in this country is supposed to be independent of the Executive. Trump may appoint the AG but he is NOT supposed to involve himself in how Justice does its damn job beyond very high level general policy guidance. But Trump doesn't care because Trump doesn't even have a low level understanding of how the government actually works or is supposed to operate.

But.... he at least seems to know he can't easily fire Sessions. Not because it would be unjustified, he doesn't give a shit about that clearly he's screaming about how he thinks it's justified at every opportunity. He can't fire Sessions because he already fired Comey for a really very bad reason and he came under obstruction investigation for that... and if he follows that up with firing his AG it will be Nixon all over again (even more than it already is at least) and the chances of the Senate approving any replacement who will involve themselves in the Russia investigation are slim to none.

So he needs Sessions to resign... so he can try and get someone in there who will commit his obstruction for him. So he attacks him.... and demeans him... and insults him... all in the public square. Trying to humiliate him into giving up and walking away.

Let's just recall for the benefit of those "the most important thing to Trump is loyalty" folks, we're talking about one of Trump's earliest and most loyal supporters whose only transgression is following ethical guidance when Trump didn't want him to. The Russia investigation is hardly the Attorney Generals personal job, it's not like he is incapable of performing his duties because he recused himself from involvement. But Trump seems to think the only thing the AG is for is doing whatever Trump wants him to do about things that impact Trump so it's noooooot faaaaaaiiiiiir that Sessions recused himself after he got appointed.

So let's hear if any Trump people are *still* ok with this presidency? How much exactly does Trump have to take an ax to the fundamental structures that maintain this nation as a Free First World Republic and not a Banana Republic before it becomes too much? Is there any limit? Dragging his unqualified family members into government positions didn't seem to do it... yay nepotism! Flouting all ethical guidelines about asset divestiture and conflict of interest avoidance didn't seem to do it... yay corruption! It being exposed that they have been lying their asses off about and actively covering up Russian contacts with the campaign for an entire year didn't seem to do it...

Is deliberately, actively, very publicly undermining the independence of the Justice Department and not even PRETENDING it is for any other reason that that Trump wants Sessions to ignore ethical guidance going to be enough? Or are we going to hear the next excuse about why this is somehow ok because... reasons... and also hysterical liberals?
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by dscott8   » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:41 pm

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I think the key to Trump lies in his personal history:

1. He was raised rich, and was undoubtedly a spoiled brat.

2. His father was arrested at a Klan rally, prosecuted for war profiteering and prosecuted again for violating Civil Rights and Fair Housing laws.

3. Despite the above, Fred Trump purchased a degree of respectability with contributions to charities.

4. Donald was privately educated and inherited his father's real estate business (despite not being the oldest child).

5. Donald ran his privately held family businesses like an absolute monarch, where the boss is always right and no one will tell him anything he does not want to hear.

6. Donald is obsessed with his "personal brand". His ego makes him stick his name on anything, and he has an inflated idea of how much value that name adds to a product.

All of this explains why he's unfit to be President. He sees it not as public service, but as a personal achievement to brag about. He's trying to run the nation as he ran his businesses, with family members on staff and demands for "loyalty" -- not to the country but to himself. He believes he can rule by fiat, and when he's contradicted he sees it not as a Constitutional issue but as a personal attack, and he responds in kind with slanders, insults, demeaning nicknames and unsupported claims that his opponent is "failing".

Trump sees those "vital institutions" as a game to be played, and one that his spoiled brat ego demands he always win. If the rules don't suit him, he breaks them, and when someone calls him on it he vilifies them on Twitter. The real shame is that his hard core followers live for this shit, refusing to recognize that they, too, are just playing pieces in the game he refuses to lose.
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by Daryl   » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:48 am

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For the world's sake you good people of the US need to be vigilant. Even here in Australia on news comment sessions we have people saying that we need a Trump, who will cut through the rules and just tell everyone what to do. A percentage of the population doesn't want the responsibility of democracy, preferring a dictatorship that will make all the decisions for them.
I'm getting a mite old to take my rifle and head for the hills, so do hope you keep him in line.
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by biochem   » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:18 pm

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Daryl wrote:For the world's sake you good people of the US need to be vigilant. Even here in Australia on news comment sessions we have people saying that we need a Trump, who will cut through the rules and just tell everyone what to do. A percentage of the population doesn't want the responsibility of democracy, preferring a dictatorship that will make all the decisions for them.
I'm getting a mite old to take my rifle and head for the hills, so do hope you keep him in line.


Relax. He was elected president, not King.
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by Annachie   » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:39 pm

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But Biohas anybody told President Trump that?

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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:59 pm

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biochem wrote:
Daryl wrote:For the world's sake you good people of the US need to be vigilant. Even here in Australia on news comment sessions we have people saying that we need a Trump, who will cut through the rules and just tell everyone what to do. A percentage of the population doesn't want the responsibility of democracy, preferring a dictatorship that will make all the decisions for them.
I'm getting a mite old to take my rifle and head for the hills, so do hope you keep him in line.


Relax. He was elected president, not King.


Care to try for a more substantive response to the various ways he is actively trying to undermine the institutional protections that differentiate President from King? Like, an independent Department of Justice for one?

This is like responding to the sight of a guy taking a flamethrower to a dry forest with "relax, we only gave him a permit for a small campfire".
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by biochem   » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:37 am

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gcomeau wrote:
biochem wrote:
Relax. He was elected president, not King.


Care to try for a more substantive response to the various ways he is actively trying to undermine the institutional protections that differentiate President from King? Like, an independent Department of Justice for one?

This is like responding to the sight of a guy taking a flamethrower to a dry forest with "relax, we only gave him a permit for a small campfire".


1. He has to work with congress. Sometimes he can persuade them to see things his way, sometimes not

2. The courts - ditto

3. gcomeau is not in jail

4. Ditto the rest of his enemies. Hey, he hasn't even sicced the IRS on them (that one may change since the Obama administration set the precedent for it. As I commented at the time it was a bad precedent to set and Democrats should be as opposed to it as Republicans were.)
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:23 am

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biochem wrote:
gcomeau wrote:
Care to try for a more substantive response to the various ways he is actively trying to undermine the institutional protections that differentiate President from King? Like, an independent Department of Justice for one?

This is like responding to the sight of a guy taking a flamethrower to a dry forest with "relax, we only gave him a permit for a small campfire".


1. He has to work with congress. Sometimes he can persuade them to see things his way, sometimes not


For some things. For others,he can act unilaterally. And color me unimpressed at the vast majority of the GOP congress' willingness to take a stand on principle.

2. The courts - ditto


Again, for some things. And he has attempted to undermine the judiciary already as well.

3. gcomeau is not in jail


"The forest isn't ashes NOW... nothing to worry about!"

4. Ditto the rest of his enemies. Hey, he hasn't even sicced the IRS on them (that one may change since the Obama administration set the precedent for it. As I commented at the time it was a bad precedent to set and Democrats should be as opposed to it as Republicans were.)


FFS... how many times does it have to be pointed out that THAT NEVER HAPPENED? Nobody "sicced the IRS" on anybody.



And you DID notice your entire response lacked a singke attemp to deny Trump is,trying to do all of thess,things and fell back entirely on attempts,to co Vince he will be unsuccessful.

Are you really ok with a wannabe fascist strongman in the presidency just because you think he will be not entirely successful at corrupting the nation's governorning institutions???

Because damn.... low bar.
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by biochem   » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:57 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
biochem wrote:Care to try for a more substantive response to the various ways he is actively trying to undermine the institutional protections that differentiate President from King? Like, an independent Department of Justice for one?

This is like responding to the sight of a guy taking a flamethrower to a dry forest with "relax, we only gave him a permit for a small campfire".

1. He has to work with congress. Sometimes he can persuade them to see things his way, sometimes not


For some things. For others,he can act unilaterally. And color me unimpressed at the vast majority of the GOP congress' willingness to take a stand on principle.

2. The courts - ditto


Again, for some things. And he has attempted to undermine the judiciary already as well.

3. gcomeau is not in jail


"The forest isn't ashes NOW... nothing to worry about!"

4. Ditto the rest of his enemies. Hey, he hasn't even sicced the IRS on them (that one may change since the Obama administration set the precedent for it. As I commented at the time it was a bad precedent to set and Democrats should be as opposed to it as Republicans were.)


FFS... how many times does it have to be pointed out that THAT NEVER HAPPENED? Nobody "sicced the IRS" on anybody.



And you DID notice your entire response lacked a singke attemp to deny Trump is,trying to do all of thess,things and fell back entirely on attempts,to co Vince he will be unsuccessful.

Are you really ok with a wannabe fascist strongman in the presidency just because you think he will be not entirely successful at corrupting the nation's governorning institutions???

Because damn.... low bar.


With the exception of Washington and Jefferson ALL of the presidents eventually want to become dictators. That's why the checks and balances were written into the constitution in the first place. They are working. He has power and can do a lot but he also has limits. No he's not happy about them and would love to get rid of them but he can't. Same with Obama. He was actually worse than Trump about expanding presidential power. And yes congress has been acting like a wet noodle re presidential power for both Obama and Trump.
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Re: The Corrosion of Americas Vital Institutions
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:10 pm

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biochem wrote:
gcomeau wrote:FFS... how many times does it have to be pointed out that THAT NEVER HAPPENED? Nobody "sicced the IRS" on anybody.



And you DID notice your entire response lacked a singke attemp to deny Trump is,trying to do all of thess,things and fell back entirely on attempts,to co Vince he will be unsuccessful.

Are you really ok with a wannabe fascist strongman in the presidency just because you think he will be not entirely successful at corrupting the nation's governorning institutions???

Because damn.... low bar.


With the exception of Washington and Jefferson ALL of the presidents eventually want to become dictators. That's why the checks and balances were written into the constitution in the first place.


I call bullshit.

Those checks are in place against the possibility, not because everyone except a few special cases is a wannabe dictator. Trump is the special case they feared, not the norm they planned on.

They are working. He has power and can do a lot but he also has limits. No he's not happy about them and would love to get rid of them but he can't. Same with Obama. He was actually worse than Trump about expanding presidential power.


I... once again... call bullshit.
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