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Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany

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Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 am

Bruno Behrends
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This board has a quite a number of politically interested participants with diverse (to put it mildly) political views and geographic origins.

Thus collecting the board's opinions about a topic (while challenging at times, heh) can broaden ones horizon and give food for thought.

With a world that's rapidly changing (US' inner problems, the middle-east in chaos, Russia playing 19th century power-politics, China rising, migrant crises, Brexit, Eurozone questions, populism and neo-fascism on the rise, Turkey dismantling its democracy, world population rising and rising, resources dwindling and dwindling, and so on - and of course elections in Germany coming up) I happen to think quite a bit about Europe and the world and my country's role in them (for good or bad).

I have my own opinions of course. But if you don't mind discussing this I would love to hear what you guys think about what's wrong with Germany or right with Germany, which direction Germany should take or shouldn't. And any suggestions about what we should improve.

So fire away please.

EDIT: spelling
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by Daryl   » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:56 am

Daryl
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Bruno, thanks for the invite, hope none abuse the privilege.
From about as far away as you can be without going into orbit I'd say.
We have heard that there is method in Merkel's madness, in that many of the refugees are smart young men who will (after training) fill the labour gaps in your industries.
Merkel and co seem to be gaining in the polls.
Depending on who you read (Fox or Reuters) there is widespread tension and petty crime, or not at all in your suburbs.
Germany has the fourth biggest GDP, and appears to be doing well financially.
I have a German surname and family history, so hope to visit around Mannheim and hope it is safe?
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by biochem   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:45 am

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The number 1 thing I would change is immigration. You have let in an enormous number of young men from a culture with profoundly different values in a very short period of time. They are from cultures in which women are the next best thing to property and sexual harassment is culturally acceptable. And the ideal of freedom of speech and religious freedom are nonexistent. Even for those individuals who are liberals (relative to their home culture), their default instincts will be to act in a manner that is unacceptable in the west. They will have to consciously monitor their behavior at all times and no one can do that 100% of the time. The burden of this mass immigration has fallen primarily on the working class while the elites sneer at their complaints from bullet proof bubbles.

I would recommend temporarily stopping immigration entirely and focus on assimilation. Assimilation takes time, effort and money. I'd start with mandatory German classes. Speaking the language is essential to assimilation. Since they are mandatory they would need to be held at a variety of times to account for work schedules. No excuses, take the classes or leave. Classes required until they are fluent in German. Second, split them up. Don't let them settle in enclaves but scatter them to the furthest reaches. Forcing them to interact with Germans and immerse themselves in German culture. This may require some of the linguistic classes to be held remotely. Third mandatory classes on German history and culture. The tone should be Germany first and proud to be a German (yes I know Germans hate nationalistic thought since Hitler, but it can be an extremely useful tool in getting the refugees to switch their emotional allegiance. They need to start thinking of themselves as German and stop thinking of themselves as Syrian etc) Fourth quit letting the elites be politically correct and make excuses. If the refugees want to be in Germany, they need to become Germans. Fifth, get rid of the bad apples. If they have to go back to a war zone, tough. They need to be kicked out.

I think Angela Merkel needs to step down, she has been in power so long that she is acting as if she were entitled to power. She is acting more like an Queen than a Prime Minister. One of the best Amendments in the US constitution is limiting the presidents to 8 years.

Also focus on what Germany does right and don't break it. The apprentice programs for example.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by The E   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:35 am

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biochem wrote:The number 1 thing I would change is immigration. You have let in an enormous number of young men from a culture with profoundly different values in a very short period of time. They are from cultures in which women are the next best thing to property and sexual harassment is culturally acceptable. And the ideal of freedom of speech and religious freedom are nonexistent. Even for those individuals who are liberals (relative to their home culture), their default instincts will be to act in a manner that is unacceptable in the west. They will have to consciously monitor their behavior at all times and no one can do that 100% of the time. The burden of this mass immigration has fallen primarily on the working class while the elites sneer at their complaints from bullet proof bubbles.


Guess how I know you haven't had any contacts with syrian refugees in Germany at large. You're railing against the Breitbart stereotype, not the actual people we've seen here.

I would recommend temporarily stopping immigration entirely and focus on assimilation. Assimilation takes time, effort and money. I'd start with mandatory German classes. Speaking the language is essential to assimilation.


These classes already exist for those who definitely do want to stay in Germany, which (it may surprise you to learn) is not everyone.

Since they are mandatory they would need to be held at a variety of times to account for work schedules. No excuses, take the classes or leave.


Taking those classes is a prerequisite to getting a work permit.

Classes required until they are fluent in German. Second, split them up. Don't let them settle in enclaves but scatter them to the furthest reaches.


This is idiotic. We cannot forcibly separate people by scattering them, more importantly, if we did this, we couldn't keep them apart unless we were to impose strictures on them that are incompatible with our understanding of freedom.

Forcing them to interact with Germans and immerse themselves in German culture. This may require some of the linguistic classes to be held remotely. Third mandatory classes on German history and culture. The tone should be Germany first and proud to be a German (yes I know Germans hate nationalistic thought since Hitler, but it can be an extremely useful tool in getting the refugees to switch their emotional allegiance. They need to start thinking of themselves as German and stop thinking of themselves as Syrian etc)


The only people capable of teaching such a class with any amount of emotional sincerity are people who cannot be trusted to teach anyone anything.

Fourth quit letting the elites be politically correct and make excuses. If the refugees want to be in Germany, they need to become Germans. Fifth, get rid of the bad apples. If they have to go back to a war zone, tough. They need to be kicked out.


Guess what we already do. It just turns out that, statistically speaking, there are very few criminals among the refugees (fewer criminals than in the general population, to be exact), so there just aren't as many people to deport as people like you, our resident right-wing extremists or our yellow press would like.

I think Angela Merkel needs to step down, she has been in power so long that she is acting as if she were entitled to power.


No, she's not. She's not my favourite politician by a long shot, and I would wish for her to be beaten in the general election this September, but "entitled to power"? No.

She is acting more like an Queen than a Prime Minister. One of the best Amendments in the US constitution is limiting the presidents to 8 years.


Please provide evidence of this.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:50 am

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I would like to add something to The E's comment here, in that the whole idea of " Second, split them up. Don't let them settle in enclaves but scatter them to the furthest reaches" just doesn't apply to a first world developed country. You can't have different classes of people, some of whom aren't allowed free movement. It is reminiscent of WW2 movies where people must have papers to travel around the same country. I had read about how actual criminality is lower in the German refugees just as in ours than the general community. They are too scared to be denied a safe place to risk it.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:42 pm

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biochem wrote:The number 1 thing I would change is immigration. You have let in an enormous number of young men from a culture with profoundly different values in a very short period of time. They are from cultures in which women are the next best thing to property and sexual harassment is culturally acceptable. And the ideal of freedom of speech and religious freedom are nonexistent. Even for those individuals who are liberals (relative to their home culture), their default instincts will be to act in a manner that is unacceptable in the west. They will have to consciously monitor their behavior at all times and no one can do that 100% of the time. The burden of this mass immigration has fallen primarily on the working class while the elites sneer at their complaints from bullet proof bubbles.

I would recommend temporarily stopping immigration entirely and focus on assimilation. Assimilation takes time, effort and money. I'd start with mandatory German classes. Speaking the language is essential to assimilation. Since they are mandatory they would need to be held at a variety of times to account for work schedules. No excuses, take the classes or leave. Classes required until they are fluent in German. Second, split them up. Don't let them settle in enclaves but scatter them to the furthest reaches. Forcing them to interact with Germans and immerse themselves in German culture. This may require some of the linguistic classes to be held remotely. Third mandatory classes on German history and culture. The tone should be Germany first and proud to be a German (yes I know Germans hate nationalistic thought since Hitler, but it can be an extremely useful tool in getting the refugees to switch their emotional allegiance. They need to start thinking of themselves as German and stop thinking of themselves as Syrian etc)


Am I the only one amused that after typing that all out there was clearly a moment of at least partial clarity where a thought somewhere along the lines of "this is starting to sound pretty Fascist" popped through and made itself heard... but all it managed to inspire was a small acknowledgement instead of a rewriting of the recommendations to, say, avoid the need for a "I get the concerns about the historical lessons of Hitler... BUT..." disclaimer.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by biochem   » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:00 pm

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The E wrote:
biochem wrote:The number 1 thing I would change is immigration. You have let in an enormous number of young men from a culture with profoundly different values in a very short period of time. They are from cultures in which women are the next best thing to property and sexual harassment is culturally acceptable. And the ideal of freedom of speech and religious freedom are nonexistent. Even for those individuals who are liberals (relative to their home culture), their default instincts will be to act in a manner that is unacceptable in the west. They will have to consciously monitor their behavior at all times and no one can do that 100% of the time. The burden of this mass immigration has fallen primarily on the working class while the elites sneer at their complaints from bullet proof bubbles.


Guess how I know you haven't had any contacts with syrian refugees in Germany at large. You're railing against the Breitbart stereotype, not the actual people we've seen here.


I'm not fond of Brietbart and rarely read it. The society in which one is raised has a significant and often subconscious impact on one's thought processes. Ask any sociologist.

I would recommend temporarily stopping immigration entirely and focus on assimilation. Assimilation takes time, effort and money. I'd start with mandatory German classes. Speaking the language is essential to assimilation.


These classes already exist for those who definitely do want to stay in Germany, which (it may surprise you to learn) is not everyone.


Those classes need to be MANDATORY not just exist.

Those who don't want to stay in Germany should be told that they need to leave, otherwise you'll have people staying for years but saying that it's just temporary. I doubt that most of those who say they don't want to stay are lying to you. I think they are lying to themselves. There is likely a lot of wishful thinking along the lines of I'll just stay in Germany a short while until thinks get better at home, then I'll go back. If (as is likely) things don't get better soon, then they'll be in Germany a very long time. All the while telling themselves that it will be just a little bit longer. So unless they choose to leave immediately, they need to learn to speak German.

And if Germany does this they will be one up on the USA, which has very few public English as a second language classes for adults. (We really need to fix that)

Since they are mandatory they would need to be held at a variety of times to account for work schedules. No excuses, take the classes or leave.


Taking those classes is a prerequisite to getting a work permit.


That is a great start! But the should be mandatory for everyone residing in the country whether or not they want a work permit. Also, they should continue to be required after the work permit is obtained until fluency is achieved.

Classes required until they are fluent in German. Second, split them up. Don't let them settle in enclaves but scatter them to the furthest reaches.


This is idiotic. We cannot forcibly separate people by scattering them, more importantly, if we did this, we couldn't keep them apart unless we were to impose strictures on them that are incompatible with our understanding of freedom.


Of course you can. They are refugees you are entitled to place rules upon them. They are not citizens or permanent residents. You are giving them charity and are entitled to put rules and conditions on that help. Virtually every charity had rules. In this case, you are absolutely allowed to tell them where they can live. Most countries restrict refugees to camps. You are already being generous by not doing that. And distributing them countrywide will ensure that all of Germany participates in the assimilation process.

Forcing them to interact with Germans and immerse themselves in German culture. This may require some of the linguistic classes to be held remotely. Third mandatory classes on German history and culture. The tone should be Germany first and proud to be a German (yes I know Germans hate nationalistic thought since Hitler, but it can be an extremely useful tool in getting the refugees to switch their emotional allegiance. They need to start thinking of themselves as German and stop thinking of themselves as Syrian etc)


The only people capable of teaching such a class with any amount of emotional sincerity are people who cannot be trusted to teach anyone anything.


I phrased this badly. My fault. National pride is one of those things that too much is bad and too little is bad. Because the evil guy misused national pride, you way over corrected after he was killed. You can add back A LOT of national pride before you are anywhere near the danger zone. And national pride is very important wham you are trying to integrate people into your society.

Fourth quit letting the elites be politically correct and make excuses. If the refugees want to be in Germany, they need to become Germans. Fifth, get rid of the bad apples. If they have to go back to a war zone, tough. They need to be kicked out.


Guess what we already do. It just turns out that, statistically speaking, there are very few criminals among the refugees (fewer criminals than in the general population, to be exact), so there just aren't as many people to deport as people like you, our resident right-wing extremists or our yellow press would like.


Since there are so "few", then is should be easy for you to rapidly kick them out and your bad press will go away.

I think Angela Merkel needs to step down, she has been in power so long that she is acting as if she were entitled to power.


No, she's not. She's not my favourite politician by a long shot, and I would wish for her to be beaten in the general election this September, but "entitled to power"? No.

She is acting more like an Queen than a Prime Minister. One of the best Amendments in the US constitution is limiting the presidents to 8 years.


Please provide evidence of this.
[/quote]

It's been her general attitude of how dare you peasants question me over the last 2 years (before that she wasn't so bad). I'll try to flag up specific examples in the news if they come up in the next few days.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by The E   » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:55 pm

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biochem wrote:I'm not fond of Brietbart and rarely read it. The society in which one is raised has a significant and often subconscious impact on one's thought processes. Ask any sociologist.


And yet, the stereotype you're railing against isn't all that present.

That is a great start! But the should be mandatory for everyone residing in the country whether or not they want a work permit. Also, they should continue to be required after the work permit is obtained until fluency is achieved.


Noone ever got fluent in a language by being taught in a classroom. Once they got the basics, immersion training is much more efficient.

Of course you can. They are refugees you are entitled to place rules upon them. They are not citizens or permanent residents. You are giving them charity and are entitled to put rules and conditions on that help. Virtually every charity had rules. In this case, you are absolutely allowed to tell them where they can live. Most countries restrict refugees to camps. You are already being generous by not doing that. And distributing them countrywide will ensure that all of Germany participates in the assimilation process.


Several things.
1. We are putting these people into camps until their residency status has been determined.
2. Once they have been determined to be accepted refugees and they get their residency permit, we have no legal way to restrict their movement within Germany.
3. Creating such a legal way is incompatible with the freedoms enumerated in the german constitution as well as several binding treaties Germany is part of.

I phrased this badly. My fault. National pride is one of those things that too much is bad and too little is bad. Because the evil guy misused national pride, you way over corrected after he was killed. You can add back A LOT of national pride before you are anywhere near the danger zone. And national pride is very important wham you are trying to integrate people into your society.


Nope. "National pride" is utterly irrelevant. Giving these people a decent start and gentle (and not-so-gentle, if needed) reminders about how life in Germany works and how they can build a life here for themselves works much better.

Since there are so "few", then is should be easy for you to rapidly kick them out and your bad press will go away.


Except the bad press won't go away. Our right-wing media (which, just as in the USA, have an extraordinarily large share of the media spectrum) are routinely lying and overexagerating the risks posed by refugees.

Also, "rapidly kicking them out" is a joke. We have strong rules against putting people into situations where they might die as a result of persecution; Unless it can be proven that their country of origin is safe for them, we cannot deport them lest we become complicit in their murder.

It's been her general attitude of how dare you peasants question me over the last 2 years (before that she wasn't so bad). I'll try to flag up specific examples in the news if they come up in the next few days.


Merkel is a conservative authoritarian. The office of the chancellor has broad powers to set policy, and Merkel's use of it isn't in any way out of the ordinary.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:24 am

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First thank you for your replies!

I set up the thread very broadly and I find it interesting that immigration is the first topic to pop up. Not that I want to complain in any way: it is one of the things that is on my mind too quite a bit these days.

Please don't be shy to add any other policy issues though. I am interested.

About immigration I think we all agree that it is a difficult issue. And that integration is extremely important. Integration is hard work (from both sides) and yeah - I think it should be improved or in a generation we will very much wish we had performed better there.

What concerns me at least as much though is the link between immigration and the rise of the far right. In my perception the influx of refugees has been quite a shock for many people and thus significantly strengthened far right movements. The theory of adhering to international and german law concerning the protection of refugees is well and good but we also have to keep the peace among our own population. And I am not talking about unrest among the immigrants here: Civil unrest among the right-wing and rising neo-nazism would be a high price to pay. That's not to say we can or should stop taking immigrants of course but it does mean the whole thing is an incredibly sensitive issue with the potential to blow up spectacularly. And if I think it's bad in Germany I only have to look east to see that it can actually be worse.
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Re: Problems of the Federal Republic of Germany
Post by Daryl   » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:24 pm

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I'd agree Bruno. We have a Muslim population of 2.6%, and have averaged one death attributed to terrorism a year (mainly nutters who use it as an excuse), yet our 5% of hard right citizens have made so much noise about it that the government is creating a new Homeland Security department to respond to the "threat".
I can well imagine that your situation is much worse.
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