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When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspiracy?

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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:29 pm

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Well Mueller just dropped multiple indictments against Russian nationals specifically for conspiring to interfere in the US elections.

Some of the more interesting tidbits... Mueller states flat out they were actively supporting Trump and opposing Clinton. And that their activities were widespread, even going so far as to organize stateside rallies while posing as US grassroots activists.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWLdakxU0AEzIj_.jpg




Mueller appears to have gotten his hands on at least some of their internal documents or communications, because the indictment is quoting them directly as to their mission. Which was in part to "conduct information warfare against the United States." (I await tenshinai's explanation that the Russians are, still, innocent and pure as the driven snow and none of this election interference campaign actually happened)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWLdcpBVAAAOqpL.jpg



They were churning out election materials featuring such slogans some may be familiar with as #TrumpTrain... #Hillary4Prison... etc... and then using people at various levels of the Trump campaign as stooges to distribute and amplify them. (Note, this does not mean there were not people in the campaign knowingly collaborating as well)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWLdfEHVwAA61x4.jpg


Once they succeeded in getting Trump elected, they shifted tactics again. Now promoting BOTH pro and anti Trump rallies and movements. They had their wildly unstable agent of chaos in the White House, now they poured on the gasoline.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWLdhkNVAAA06Bh.jpg



etc...


And Mueller is, of course, nowhere near done.


And I just want to point out. The immediate reaction of the President of the United States to multiple federal indictments against Russian nationals for running an active information warfare campaign against the US election system was...



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 0088033282


Or to sum up. "I DIDN'T DO IT! WASN'T ME!" (Something which has, still, been in no way stated by any aspect of this investigation btw).

No condemnation of the interference. No "ok, well now yes we'll have to implement those sanctions obviously and I'll stop denying the Russians were interfering". Just immediate reflexive denial of his own guilt or involvement. And a distortion of the content of the indictments. It says the Russians were running disruption ops in 2014, then switched to supporting Trump later. All Trump says is "started in 2014 before I announced! Aha!" And the intel community has REPEATEDLY made it very clear they have taken no position on whether the election results were impacted. But from the details coming out in this indictment it's pretty damn hard to argue they weren't.


Because you know, this is totally how an innocent responsible president would react to this news.
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by Michael Everett   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 am

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From a certain point of view, Trump is telling the truth. He didn't know that the Russians were seeking to influence the election.

Some might call it willful blindness or plausible deniability, but as long as Trump wasn't told about it, he could convince himself that it wasn't happening.

Now that it's hit the news, though, Trump is in damage-control mode. However, instead of double-checking his aides and having a provably independent investigator look at everything that resulted in him entering the White House, he's pulled up the drawbridge and ordered his loyalists to man the walls, completely ignoring the newly-revealed tunnel that leads to the powder magazine.

I have a suspicion that things are going to get very, very energetic soon...
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by pappilon   » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:20 am

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Michael Everett wrote:From a certain point of view, Trump is telling the truth. He didn't know that the Russians were seeking to influence the election.

Some might call it willful blindness or plausible deniability, but as long as Trump wasn't told about it, he could convince himself that it wasn't happening.


Not quite I understand your reasoning here, or agree with it if I do follow it. Trump controls everything in his little world. I don't think he understands or even cares a whit about "plausible" deniability. But just because the Russians seeked to cause dissention in the US before, during and after the elections, (agitprop) ala the CIA, does not imply collusion on the part of the Trump Campaign staff, even as the Russians decided to aid Trump.

Now that it's hit the news, though, Trump is in damage-control mode. However, instead of double-checking his aides and having a provably independent investigator look at everything that resulted in him entering the White House, he's pulled up the drawbridge and ordered his loyalists to man the walls, completely ignoring the newly-revealed tunnel that leads to the powder magazine.

I have a suspicion that things are going to get very, very energetic soon...[/quote]

I do agree with this. His actions have the appearance of deceit and collusion. Of course, his baseline reaction to anything is to lie, obfuscate, and deny. Much as I want there to be collusion and for the RNC to implode, I am not jumping on the bandwagon. I want Mueller to either find proof of collusion or find there is no proof. I do want due process and a full investigation.
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by Joat42   » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:06 am

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What I find tragicomic is that a lot of the propaganda the Russian spewed forth has been repeated on this forum by some people.

I wonder how they feel now when they hopefully realize that the Russians have been pulling their strings for almost 4 years..

Remember kids, not everything you read on the internet is true no matter how much it may resonate with your worldview.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by pappilon   » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:54 am

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Joat42 wrote:What I find tragicomic is that a lot of the propaganda the Russian spewed forth has been repeated on this forum by some people.

I wonder how they feel now when they hopefully realize that the Russians have been pulling their strings for almost 4 years..

Remember kids, not everything you read on the internet is true no matter how much it may resonate with your worldview.


None of what they "spewed forth" is original to them, there is nothing I haven't heard or read in conservative media over the past 30 years. Its the positioning of it and taking advantage of the algorithms used by facebook etc to stir the pot and hammer the wedges a little deeper.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by Joat42   » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:24 am

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pappilon wrote:
Joat42 wrote:What I find tragicomic is that a lot of the propaganda the Russian spewed forth has been repeated on this forum by some people.

I wonder how they feel now when they hopefully realize that the Russians have been pulling their strings for almost 4 years..

Remember kids, not everything you read on the internet is true no matter how much it may resonate with your worldview.


None of what they "spewed forth" is original to them, there is nothing I haven't heard or read in conservative media over the past 30 years. Its the positioning of it and taking advantage of the algorithms used by facebook etc to stir the pot and hammer the wedges a little deeper.

The point is that they took arguments and slogans from the fringe and extremists and pushed them into the mainstream - and a lot of people gladly believed it and repeated it with glee.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by gcomeau   » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:53 pm

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So those super tough North Korea sanctions Trump announced that are sanctioning a bunch of ships and shipping companies to prevent them from supplying North Korea?

Guess what country's ships got off totally in the clear even though they have been observed performing fuel transfers to North Korean ships?

Go ahead, Guess.

Starts with an R....

End in "ussia"...

Nothing to see here folks....
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by pappilon   » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:02 pm

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gcomeau wrote:So those super tough North Korea sanctions Trump announced that are sanctioning a bunch of ships and shipping companies to prevent them from supplying North Korea?

Guess what country's ships got off totally in the clear even though they have been observed performing fuel transfers to North Korean ships?

Go ahead, Guess.

Starts with an R....

End in "ussia"...

Nothing to see here folks....


Sounds like Trump is announcing a blockade of N.K.s waters. Life imitates art.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by gcomeau   » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:36 pm

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pappilon wrote:
gcomeau wrote:So those super tough North Korea sanctions Trump announced that are sanctioning a bunch of ships and shipping companies to prevent them from supplying North Korea?

Guess what country's ships got off totally in the clear even though they have been observed performing fuel transfers to North Korean ships?

Go ahead, Guess.

Starts with an R....

End in "ussia"...

Nothing to see here folks....


Sounds like Trump is announcing a blockade of N.K.s waters. Life imitates art.


That's seriously what you took away from that? Really?
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Re: When do we just call the Russia thing a criminal conspir
Post by pappilon   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:31 pm

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gcomeau wrote:That's seriously what you took away from that? Really?


Old enough to remember the US blockade of Cuba during the missile crisis. and Trump ain't no JFK. Took quite a lot out of it. Mostly "See, I'm not having a bromance with Vlad." Not seriously worth commenting on.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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