What has Trump done right so far?

I'm not sure it's even that simple Cthia.

I think it's his philosophies and attitudes behind how he polices the border, behind why he polices the border, that are wrong.

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Annachie wrote:I'm not sure it's even that simple Cthia.

I think it's his philosophies and attitudes behind how he polices the border, behind why he polices the border, that are wrong.

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You are absolutely correct here. You disagree with why he policies the border, many here agree with him.

We do not want to have open borders and incent the creation of an underclass. Set the criteria for immigrants and let any apply for admission. Our immigration policy should incorporate people who want to join our society rather than remake it into the society that failed them at home.

Set some number of persecuted minority refugees we allow in to enter in addition to the core immigrants. But economic refugees are not nearly in the same class as persecuted minorities. Allowing massive blocks of economic refugees into a country will greatly impede assimilation and promote the creation of an underclass.

Yeah, I agree with his reasoning.

PeterZ wrote:

gcomeau wrote:Your own article cited in support refutes your claim.
I point this out AGAIN, since you seem to be adept at ignoring it.

Dude, FDR managed 8.1% compounded annually for the first 8 years of his presidency after the Hoover fiasco (1933-1934). GDP rose from 0.862Tr in 1934 to 1.49Tr in 1941.

Dude, FDR got to direct his stimulus the way he wanted it because his party had crushing control of congress as well, so it almost all went into infrastructure programs. One of the most effective forms of economic stimulus that exist.

Obama had to deal with a Republican presence in Congress sufficient to filibuster any stimulus spending, and which DID filibuster it until over half the spending was dedicated to tax breaks and just barely enough Republicans broke ranks to allow his to do *something* to fight the disaster. Tax breaks however are one of the LEAST effective stimulus measures that exist.


In order to stimulate the economy you need money circulating in it. Money spent on infrastructure automatically goes to the businesses and workers making that infrastructure happen, it's a direct injection.

Tax breaks you just have to hope the money gets spent rather than shoved in somebody's bank account to just sit there doing nothing.


(And in the meantime all the GOP state legislatures were laying off public sector workers and driving up unemployment... the exact opposite of what they should have been doing)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_90Kz52W9Bs/V ... pt2014.PNG


So again, if you want someone to blame for the recovery not being more impressive than it already was... you can either blame the person who was patching the holes in the hull. Or the people with the drills and axes merrily putting new holes in it.

We can have as many opinions as you or I want to cite.

That's an amusing thing to say when you have only cited one and it disagreed with you.

gcomeau wrote:Is that, in fact your answer? You think the guy who ripped a hole in the boat is the better captain than the guy who fixed the hole?

gcomeau wrote: No, they really don't. the numbers are actually quite simple. You just don't like what they say.

According to the actual numbers, if that is what you are really going by, it is Obama that ripped a whole in the boat and then took credit for fixing half the hole. by the numbers:
FY Deficit
2000 -236.24
2001 -128.23
2002 157.75
2003 377.59
2004 412.73
2005 318.35
2006 248.18
2007 160.71
2008 458.55
2009 1412.69
2010 1294.37
2011 1299.59
2012 1086.96
2013 679.55
2014 484.62
2015 438.4
2016 587.41

Notice the HUGE deficit numbers in 09, 10, 11 and 12. Now I know you are going to argue that we should consider all of these years to be "Bush" deficits. (That's real handy isn't it?) Now these are the actual numbers and I see what they say. You cannot deny that Obama deficits were far more than Bush deficits. To assign them to Bush is pure irrationalism. (See I don't assign them all to Obama because I am far more rationale about the argument, but since you want to go to the extremes, have at it.)

gcomeau wrote: It is just depressing that you think Trump is trying an approach based on anything whatsoever... he doesn't have the attention span to construct an approach based on anything. He just flails around making pronouncements between twitter outbursts and latching on to any good news to claim credit for it whether he had anything to do with it or not.

Gee so much for progressive tolerance. I guess you would prefer the political double speak, pablum and lip service paid out over the past 8 years.

How does it feel to know that Obama is responsible for Trump and Trump's authority at the moment?

How does it feel that Reid doomed any Dem seat at the table in the Senate?

How does it feel to know that the Dems are responsible for Trump? (Bernie would have won.)

At least Trump is going to promote capitalistic individualistic growth over socialistic nanny state progressive failed model types.

At least a growth based deficit/debt reduction is the only hope there is as there is zero appetite for curbing the entitlement crowd.

As good old Ben said: “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.”

And as is attributed to Aristotle: "Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms."

Taken all together, I basically predict that when the pendulum swings back and the Left takes power, they will ensure that we skip the democracy phase altogether. And that is still Trump's #1 "right so far" - delaying this outcome for at least a few more years - until I retire and can afford to become a good socialist.

And if he's is successful in delivering the goods, maybe 16 years - the left's #1 nightmare - 8 years of Trump + 8 years of Ivanka...

CRC wrote:

gcomeau wrote:Is that, in fact your answer? You think the guy who ripped a hole in the boat is the better captain than the guy who fixed the hole?

gcomeau wrote: No, they really don't. the numbers are actually quite simple. You just don't like what they say.

According to the actual numbers, if that is what you are really going by, it is Obama that ripped a whole in the boat and then took credit for fixing half the hole. by the numbers:
FY Deficit
2000 -236.24
2001 -128.23
2002 157.75
2003 377.59
2004 412.73
2005 318.35
2006 248.18
2007 160.71
2008 458.55
2009 1412.69
2010 1294.37
2011 1299.59
2012 1086.96
2013 679.55
2014 484.62
2015 438.4
2016 587.41

Notice the HUGE deficit numbers in 09, 10, 11 and 12. Now I know you are going to argue that we should consider all of these years to be "Bush" deficits.

One little detail you appear to be unaware of.

That "FY" up there? That means those are Fiscal "years".

The 2009 budget? That's for the fiscal year beginning in October 2008. And you see the way budgets work is, you write them before the spending they set the budget for happens.

So unless you want to claim Obama got sworn in in January 2009 then went back in time and created the giant deficit in the budget for the fiscal year that was already almost half over... yeah, pretty sure I'm blaming it on Bush.

Since It Was His Budget.


Obama added a little bit to the deficit that year with emergency stimulus spending that got passed in the final months, but the deficit was already WELL north of a Trillion dollars before he even took the oath of office. So once again, we know who smashed the hole in the boat. And it was Captain Bush.

Then you see how after that year the numbers keep getting smaller and smaller? That's what we refer to as patching the freaking hole.



(I have no idea what the heck most of the rest of your rant was even about)

gcomeau wrote:
Dude, FDR got to direct his stimulus the way he wanted it because his party had crushing control of congress as well, so it almost all went into infrastructure programs. One of the most effective forms of economic stimulus that exist.

Obama had to deal with a Republican presence in Congress sufficient to filibuster any stimulus spending, and which DID filibuster it until over half the spending was dedicated to tax breaks and just barely enough Republicans broke ranks to allow his to do *something* to fight the disaster. Tax breaks however are one of the LEAST effective stimulus measures that exist.


In order to stimulate the economy you need money circulating in it. Money spent on infrastructure automatically goes to the businesses and workers making that infrastructure happen, it's a direct injection.

Tax breaks you just have to hope the money gets spent rather than shoved in somebody's bank account to just sit there doing nothing.


(And in the meantime all the GOP state legislatures were laying off public sector workers and driving up unemployment... the exact opposite of what they should have been doing)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_90Kz52W9Bs/V ... pt2014.PNG


So again, if you want someone to blame for the recovery not being more impressive than it already was... you can either blame the person who was patching the holes in the hull. Or the people with the drills and axes merrily putting new holes in it.

We can have as many opinions as you or I want to cite.

That's an amusing thing to say when you have only cited one and it disagreed with you.

Here is the perfect case of POV filtering understanding. We will not agree, so why bother. You will excuse Obama anything to further your point and I will likely cut him so little slack that should some uninterested 3rd party find the point at the center between our positions, we will find a position approaching being agreeable to either of us.

So, I believe you are way to the unreasonable left and you find my position unreasonably right. Plus ca change, hien?

He was saying that Trump is a despot and that he is desperately hoping for the democrats to get back into power when he retires so he can enjoy the social justice he wants to prevent people enjoying now.

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Annachie wrote:He was saying that Trump is a despot and that he is desperately hoping for the democrats to get back into power when he retires so he can enjoy the social justice he wants to prevent people enjoying now.

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Damn, you guys down-under really like to project your internal BS on those you don't like, eh?

PeterZ wrote:

gcomeau wrote:
Dude, FDR got to direct his stimulus the way he wanted it because his party had crushing control of congress as well, so it almost all went into infrastructure programs. One of the most effective forms of economic stimulus that exist.

Obama had to deal with a Republican presence in Congress sufficient to filibuster any stimulus spending, and which DID filibuster it until over half the spending was dedicated to tax breaks and just barely enough Republicans broke ranks to allow his to do *something* to fight the disaster. Tax breaks however are one of the LEAST effective stimulus measures that exist.


In order to stimulate the economy you need money circulating in it. Money spent on infrastructure automatically goes to the businesses and workers making that infrastructure happen, it's a direct injection.

Tax breaks you just have to hope the money gets spent rather than shoved in somebody's bank account to just sit there doing nothing.


(And in the meantime all the GOP state legislatures were laying off public sector workers and driving up unemployment... the exact opposite of what they should have been doing)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_90Kz52W9Bs/V ... pt2014.PNG


So again, if you want someone to blame for the recovery not being more impressive than it already was... you can either blame the person who was patching the holes in the hull. Or the people with the drills and axes merrily putting new holes in it.


.....

That's an amusing thing to say when you have only cited one and it disagreed with you.

Here is the perfect case of POV filtering understanding.

We are discussion facts and figures.

The deficit number spiked when they did (end of Bush) and came back down when it did (through Obama). Fact. Not a matter of perspective or opinion.

The one source you have cited during this discussion to try to claim Obama "stifled" the economy praised his economic policy performance. Fact. Not perspective or opinion.

The GOP kept insisting on tax breaks tax breaks tax breaks during attempts to get the stimulus passed and eventually over $300 billion dollars of the stimulus spending ended up going to tax breaks just to get like 3 GOP votes for it. Fact. Not perspective or opinion.


Tax breaks *suck* as stimulus. Consistently scored as having the lowest stimulative multipliers by the CBO:

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... lier_1.pdf


Or by the analysts at Moody's:

https://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/docu ... _24_08.pdf

Or by frankly pretty much anyone who knows what the hell they are talking about. Fact. Not perspective or opinion.


Republican controlled states kept driving unemployment higher with higher public sector layoffs right in the middle of recovery efforts.

http://www.businessinsider.com/states-w ... ses-2012-3

Fact, not opinion.

You just keep invoking POV when the facts lead to conclusions you don't like.

PeterZ wrote:

Annachie wrote:He was saying that Trump is a despot and that he is desperately hoping for the democrats to get back into power when he retires so he can enjoy the social justice he wants to prevent people enjoying now.

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Damn, you guys down-under really like to project your internal BS on those you don't like, eh?

Your country, your rules, you voted Trump in so enjoy.
Just the same it is reasonable to say that Australia (along with Canada and NZ) has some common features with the US, like - English speaking democracy, free press, affluent citizens, pioneering past with displaced indigenous people.
This highlights the differences so we feel it is appropriate to comment. Some things you do better, like maximum 8 years for your leaders, able to draw ministers from outside the politicians (not that it seems to be working well at present), and ?.
We look at your healthcare and welfare systems and give thanks for ours. If Clinton and Trump were the best you could come up with out of 310M your system is broken.
Where our current interest lies, is how Trump continually seems to be doing stuff that would have him sacked and possibly jailed if he did them here.