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What has Trump done right so far?

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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:09 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Starsaber wrote:I agree about the military budget increase and I work in the defense industry. If there are problems with the military budget, it's with priorities, not quantity. We don't have hostile powers on either of our borders, so there's no need to spend so much on defense.


Lowering the priority for NATO and let the Europeans defend themselves is one place to begin. Western Europe is no longer the destitute bunch of bombed out nations it was after WWII. The EU nations aggregate GDPs approximate the US at ~83% of ours in 2015. There is no reason they cannot shoulder their own defense. Sure the US will honor the treaty. But why must the US be the tip of the spear? Heck, we're the entire spearhead. Should NATO be attacked, we can mobilize and send troops to Europe's defense.



He says while overlooking that the collective defense clause of NATO has been invoked exactly once in its entire history.

By the US. After 9/11.

So don't try to blame NATO obligations for the US military budget. The US spends all that money on the military because it wants to for it's own purposes. And that isn't changing under Trump, it's getting worse. Because Trump loves him some military muscle flexing, makes him feel big and important.
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by CRC   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:07 pm

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So setting aside the conspiracy theory undertones of that... how exactly has Trump "exposed" anything considering 3 of the 4 extremely public examples you just gave pre-dated him?
Those were examples that are well known in the past. In 4-5 years you might have similar examples relevant to today. But seriously, the extent of the leakage of classified information is astounding and unprecedented. And the leakage is intended to do serious political damage and encouragement to Trump’s detractors. In other words Trump has brought to the surface a better understanding of the “Deep State” – which I define as unelected bureaucrats do what “they” think is right rather than the elected government. That’s why I mentioned “Mandarin”.
And keep in mind, this will work both ways. The pendulum will swing and the precedent has now been set.

Are you saying you actually think they haven't been repeatedly reviewed before?
Well according to your cite the date on the report is 2011. If I’m not mistaken its now 2017. Since 2011 Obama reportedly issued 111 new ‘rules”. Topped off by 97,110 pages in the Federal Registry in 2016. So again, the question arises. Is the Trump EO requiring a new round of reviews right or not?

Pointless busywork and grandstanding. As if all the myriad law enforcement agencies across the nation weren't already working on this... all the time... as you know, their entire job.
So you oppose Trump directing DoJ to “do their job”? Of course its grandstanding. That does not make it wrong.

You know perfectly well this isn't about making Dodd Frank better, it's about gutting it so Trump's rich buddies not to mention his own companies are under less oversight.
See, #4 is out in full force. Do you not understand the role of the legislative branch or how regulations are enacted? Dodd Frank, the basic statute, cannot be changed by EO. Existing Dodd-Frank regulations cannot be discarded without following a process defined in statute. There were, as of July 2015, according to a pro-Dodd-Frank article, 247 separate rules and 22,000 pages of regulations written and enacted to implement Dodd-Frank, with 83 rules still to go. (Don’t know where those ended up.) There is a legitimate argument that Dodd-Frank is one of the contributing factors to the slow recovery of the economy from the ‘Great Recession’. And Dodd-Frank was written in the shadow of the ‘Great Recession’ which typically makes for very bad law. A review and debate is never a bad thing, regardless of the motives. So because you attribute ‘bad’ motives, you discard review and debate.

Would give him credit.... if he wasn't just giving entire government agencies and departments directly TO the people they are supposed to be regulating so they have no need to lobby. (EPA and Education anyone... not to mention making the CEO of Exxon Mobile Sec State...)
#4 and the Big O. You deflected to yet another tangent to further reduce the need to agree with the EO. You first discredited his EO by claiming it should have covered everyone when it could not have in the first place – now you raise an entirely different and non-sequitur to the first – spinning and claiming that now there is no need to lobby. But that wasn’t the subject of the EO in the first place. It simply extended the ban period for Trump political appointees and had nothing to do with cabinet selections.

And you're a much more authoritative source on that subject than the Sioux whose burial sites they are who say the pipeline cuts right through a sacred burial site...?(Not to mention through the only source of clean water for the entire reservation.)
But I can read a map. And I am intimately familiar with the supremacy clause. You said “Because authorising a pipeline through sacred ground in violation of existing treaties…”. But the pipelines do not go through any ground in violation of existing treaties. Period. I successfully disputed your claim. Now you resort to unproven allegations that the pipelines go through “sacred burial sites”. See how you have now retreated from ‘violation of existing treaties’ to a legally unsubstantiated property claim. Besides, considering how long my ancestors have been in this land, I suspect every square foot of the US has been a sacred burial site at one time or another.
As far as the clean water. Everyone lives downstream from both pipelines. Not just the Sioux, the Cherokee, Arapahoe, Comanche, Kiowa, or Osage, but all towns, cities and people living downstream. Will the pipelines leak – yep – will they cause environmental issues – yep. What else is new?

Which was more stupid pointless grandstanding and has already had a bunch of unintended but entirely predictable negative consequences because when you want to cut waste generally you have to IDENTIFY waste first, not just declare a blanket prohibition on hires without knowing what people are being hired *for*.
EO’s are always somewhat political grandstanding. But it sets a tone. Businesses do it all the time. (And then they carve out exceptions, just the Feds are doing.) But the overall number of federal, state and local employees is getting out of hand and has to be addressed. The number of federal employees were about 2.7M in 2014 (excluding the military). Now considering that there is about 160M in the civilian labor force and there are about 20M employed at the state and local levels, we are talking close to 23M Federal, State and Local government employees. That’s over 14% of all working people are essentially overhead. (Probably writing those Dodd-Frank regulations.) that’s a lot. A freeze is only a start. I’m hoping for a 50% reduction – but that’s just a pipe dream.
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by CRC   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:10 pm

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Annachie wrote:7. Been doing more reading on deep state. The Trump administration is seriously mis-using the term by using it about leaks.

The thing is leaking is a sign that the administration staff is unhappy with the government's functioning. Either pointing out illegal, or (arguably) immoral actions.
Indeed, your examples make that point.

So no he hasn't exposed the deep state issue, which is best described as the "Shadow Government". (Think Blacklist season 1 and 2 :) )
What he is complaining about is his own staff's (and several leaks have to be his own appointed staff) unhappiness with how they are being treated.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Not necessarily. His political staff is rather shallow right now and the leaks about his actual phone conversations, not to mention Flynn's conversation, smacks of operatives within the intelligence community - or an admin listening in. But the breadth and depth and variety of the leakage suggests it goes well beyond his political staff and into the Civil Service.
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:14 pm

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CRC wrote:
Not necessarily. His political staff is rather shallow right now and the leaks about his actual phone conversations, not to mention Flynn's conversation, smacks of operatives within the intelligence community - or an admin listening in. But the breadth and depth and variety of the leakage suggests it goes well beyond his political staff and into the Civil Service.


With the exception of cooks and cleaning staff and the like (who don't generally sit in on high level state calls) the incoming administration replaces ALL White House staff with their own people.


So if "an admin" was listening in and leaking, it was a Trump appointed "admin".
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by CRC   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:15 pm

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Annachie wrote:10. Dodd Frank.
You understand that members of the administration are the very people whose actions caused it to come into being.
That the Presidents comments on it are all about removing it entirely.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Of course he has. He is President, not king. Any changes to Dodd-Frank existing regulations are subject to the regulatory process - unless he pulls an Obama and directs the DoJ and IRS to 'not enforce certain provisions that he doesn't like'. That pen and phone sure started a slippery slope didn't it?

As far as changes to the statue, that must go through congress.
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by CRC   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:43 pm

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Starsaber wrote:
Annachie wrote:Oh, and btw. The "Deep State" is usually associated with the industrial military complex

The USA already spend more on military than the next 12 largest militaries in the world.
And are now upping that budget by 10%.
Bet you none of that 10% increase goes to soldiers pay.
Doubt it would even go to boots on the ground.
It'll be big ticket items.

Sounds like the "Deep State" to me.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


I agree about the military budget increase and I work in the defense industry. If there are problems with the military budget, it's with priorities, not quantity. We don't have hostile powers on either of our borders, so there's no need to spend so much on defense.


Let's look at what we are actually spending the money on. (Looking at 2015 enacted levels.)

Around 50% of the DoD budget is personnel pay and benefits. That's a pretty substantial labor cost.

Broken down into major categories O&M (Operations and Maintenance) is the single largest category with pay second, procurement third and RDT&E 4th.

The question is not how much we pay out to defend others, the question is how much it COSTS us to have the capability to defend others. Another example of the MSM bias is they dispute Trump's citing of NATO costs by what we CONTRIBUTE to NATO, not what NATO costs us. The bases in Germany, Belgium, UK, Italy, Turkey - and now former Eastern Bloc countries like Romania, Poland, etc. The airlift, sealift, prepositioning and logistics costs to support the modern version of REFORGER.

How much does it cost to support the two regional conflict strategy around the globe? How much will it cost for us to have the capability to protect Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines in the next 10 years? While at the same time protecting Israel, Europe and Southwest Asia?

Its a legitimate question that requires very deep analysis and thought about the REQUIREMENTS first of all.

However, that being said, I have to agree with Trump that the cost of the new AFONE and the cost of the F35 is out of control.

I am a firm believer in John Boyd's military procurement theories, love the OODA loop and it really applies to things nowadays, and one of his most fundamental about the Military Industrial Complex is that the cost of aircraft will eventually rise to the point that the entire AF budget is spent on one plane...B2 - $2B a copy, B21 - $5B a copy? Not far away are we?
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by CRC   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:53 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
CRC wrote:
Not necessarily. His political staff is rather shallow right now and the leaks about his actual phone conversations, not to mention Flynn's conversation, smacks of operatives within the intelligence community - or an admin listening in. But the breadth and depth and variety of the leakage suggests it goes well beyond his political staff and into the Civil Service.


With the exception of cooks and cleaning staff and the like (who don't generally sit in on high level state calls) the incoming administration replaces ALL White House staff with their own people.


So if "an admin" was listening in and leaking, it was a Trump appointed "admin".


Inside.gov lists 472 in 2016. I doubt Trump has replaced all of them - yet. But its more than just the white house staff. For example - CNN quotes US intelligence sources, not just white house sources. So the "deep state" appears to be alive and well...
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:03 pm

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CRC wrote:
gcomeau wrote:So setting aside the conspiracy theory undertones of that... how exactly has Trump "exposed" anything considering 3 of the 4 extremely public examples you just gave pre-dated him?

Those were examples that are well known in the past. In 4-5 years you might have similar examples relevant to today. But seriously, the extent of the leakage of classified information is astounding and unprecedented.


So is the scope and quantity of the material that warrants leaking. They go hand in hand.

You are trying to attribute to deep dark conspiracy that which is obviously attributable to gross incompetence and misconduct by the administration itself.


Are you saying you actually think they haven't been repeatedly reviewed before?

Well according to your cite the date on the report is 2011. If I’m not mistaken its now 2017. Since 2011 Obama reportedly issued 111 new ‘rules”.


That would be EOs. And only Trump can act on executive orders so that has nothing to do with any directed regulatory review by any other departments.


Topped off by 97,110 pages in the Federal Registry in 2016. So again, the question arises. Is the Trump EO requiring a new round of reviews right or not?


It's busywork and PR. Obama only did it to make the GOP shut up about it. Trump is only doing it to throw red meat to the same people.


Pointless busywork and grandstanding. As if all the myriad law enforcement agencies across the nation weren't already working on this... all the time... as you know, their entire job.

So you oppose Trump directing DoJ to “do their job”? Of course its grandstanding. That does not make it wrong.


No, it makes it a pointless waste of time... something done to give the easy appearance of doing work without the actual work part. Which is the description of most of anything Trump does. All show, no substance.


Would give him credit.... if he wasn't just giving entire government agencies and departments directly TO the people they are supposed to be regulating so they have no need to lobby. (EPA and Education anyone... not to mention making the CEO of Exxon Mobile Sec State...)


#4 and the Big O. You deflected to yet another tangent to further reduce the need to agree with the EO. You first discredited his EO by claiming it should have covered everyone when it could not have in the first place – now you raise an entirely different and non-sequitur to the first – spinning and claiming that now there is no need to lobby.


Maybe you should try harder to keep track of who you are replying to.

There was no "first" thing I said. I replied to you once before this. There was *one* thing I said... that thing right up there.

And the one thing I said was not a non-sequitur. It was pointing out that his lobbying ban is *meaningless* when he is simply handing control of the government directly to the people who would normally be lobbying it.

And you're a much more authoritative source on that subject than the Sioux whose burial sites they are who say the pipeline cuts right through a sacred burial site...?(Not to mention through the only source of clean water for the entire reservation.)

But I can read a map. And I am intimately familiar with the supremacy clause. You said “Because authorising a pipeline through sacred ground in violation of existing treaties…”. But the pipelines do not go through any ground in violation of existing treaties. Period. I successfully disputed your claim.


Again, try to keep track of who you are speaking to. (and also, if you wouldn't mind, use the quote tags. Your posts are unnecessarily hard to read)

(And the map you are reading shows treaty boundaries that are under dispute. FYI.)

Which was more stupid pointless grandstanding and has already had a bunch of unintended but entirely predictable negative consequences because when you want to cut waste generally you have to IDENTIFY waste first, not just declare a blanket prohibition on hires without knowing what people are being hired *for*.


EO’s are always somewhat political grandstanding. But it sets a tone.


Actually... no. No they aren't.

Businesses do it all the time. (And then they carve out exceptions, just the Feds are doing.) But the overall number of federal, state and local employees is getting out of hand and has to be addressed.


In what fantasy world?

Public sector employment has been lagging WAY down since the Great Recession. It should have been growing to fight unemployment and stimulate economic recovery but mostly the GOP controlled states slashed jobs right when the economy needed people working. Which is a REAL reason the recovery took so long, not financial regulations. :roll:

http://static2.businessinsider.com/imag ... pt2014.png


The number of federal employees were about 2.7M in 2014 (excluding the military). Now considering that there is about 160M in the civilian labor force and there are about 20M employed at the state and local levels, we are talking close to 23M Federal, State and Local government employees. That’s over 14% of all working people are essentially overhead.


What the hell do you think "overhead" means?

Those workers are not "overhead".
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by Daryl   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:05 pm

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Now retired I worked in public service and normal business.
There is an unfounded belief that all public service is non productive overhead. All big organisations have to have background administrative staff in order to function, so some overhead is unavoidable.
As an example of comparative productivity, we had a federal government employment office, that was privatised on ideological grounds. The govetnment now pays a bounty on every long term unemployed person the privatised agencies place.
Official audits show that the cost is now three and a half times higher, due to duplicaion, corporate structures and profit. One owner made a personal $200M in a short time.
The military is another example, in that they are continually talking about more teeth, less tail. Thd end result of that is a Scottish Highlander living off the land with his claymore. Didn't go so well at Culloden though?
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Re: What has Trump done right so far?
Post by biochem   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:55 pm

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Daryl wrote:I thought this thread was about what Trump has done right so far?

CRC wrote:1 – Stopped Hillary Clinton from becoming President.

2 – Turned the US political system on its head.

3 – Exposed the hypocrisy of the left on multiple issue related to the Constitution – from the electoral college to the first amendment to the 4th amendment to the 9th amendment

4 – Laid bare the mainstream media’s political bias.

5 – Nominated Neal Gorsuch to SCOTUS.

6 – Exposed the Republican establishment as a bunch of rock thrower’s – not ready to enact anything.

7 – Exposed the deep state issue – can anyone say “Mandarin”?

8 – Executive order requiring every agency to establish a Regulatory Reform Task.

9 – Executive Order dealing with DoJ task forces.

10 – Executive order reviewing Dodd Frank.

11 – Executive Order lengthening the ban on Executive brank lobbyists.

12 – Executive Order for Keystone pipeline and Dakota access.

13 - Executive Order Hiring Freeze,


That depends on political leanings. The above is a conservative wish list come true. 8-)
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