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The Trump Administration's War With Reality

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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by Annachie   » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:43 pm

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You're reading an awful lot into that one phrase.

In fact I would go so far as to say you're turnig it into what you want it to read.

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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:17 pm

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Daryl wrote:A couple of quiet real facts, easily verified here on this very forum. I didn't comment on the "Telephone call" or whether it was Trump's fault it went pear shaped, I commented on Trump's cavalier dismissal of the call to arguably the US's most steadfast supporter as "not with anyone important". Not false facts saw it myself.
As to the actual content of the call now. We weren't asking the US to "accept our own refugees", but to swap them for "your own refugees". Personally I believe it was a stupid political face saving agreement on both sides, but, honour your deals, don't try to weasel out, not our concern if you have changed leaders.
Lastly I was polite and complimentary to you, and you chose to throw it back rudely at me. Not helping my even handiness in this discussion.


PeterZ wrote:
How much of that call was problematic because of the release of the details of the call? If so, why is this the President's fault? The jerks leaking the information are at fault. As for the content of the call? Accept your own refugees rather than sucker Obama to agree to terms President Trump has to honor.

I am glad you are entertained. All of us have to enjoy what small favors we find.


I intended no rudeness, Dary. Your PM negotiated something many here view as a political blindside by the outgoing administration. This deal was concluded in the prior administration's waning days. My comment was directed at your government but was indeed worded poorly. Apologies. You have always been polite in your posts even when gently teasing.

Regardless of what the President believes and the circumstances prompting his response, his comment was graceless. A small disappointment I suffer with many more to come.
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by biochem   » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:05 am

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Re Clinton and Benghazi

Direct responsibility for the incident itself

-> executive responsibility

She was in charge and she created an environment at State such that the person(s) who made the poor decisions believed that those were the decisions she would want them to make and he/she/they made those decisions believing that the boss (Clinton) would reward them.

The cover up

She is directly responsible for this one and it is classic Clinton i.e. her default behavior

Another example is her horrendous mishandling of the pneumonia last fall. What she should have done was issue a press release that she had pneumonia and that she would be back on the campaign trail in a couple of days. Then in her next few speeches she should have talked about the wonders of antibiotics and how after just a couple of days on them she was as good as new. Then add in some promises to keep funding NIH antibiotic research etc and a week later the story would have been forgotten. Instead she issues 3-4 fake news stories to cover it up,none of which work and which results in every conspiracy theorist in the USA speculate on whether or not she is dying. Her health was a major story for months.
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by Starsaber   » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:28 pm

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biochem wrote:Another example is her horrendous mishandling of the pneumonia last fall. What she should have done was issue a press release that she had pneumonia and that she would be back on the campaign trail in a couple of days. Then in her next few speeches she should have talked about the wonders of antibiotics and how after just a couple of days on them she was as good as new. Then add in some promises to keep funding NIH antibiotic research etc and a week later the story would have been forgotten. Instead she issues 3-4 fake news stories to cover it up,none of which work and which results in every conspiracy theorist in the USA speculate on whether or not she is dying. Her health was a major story for months.


Sort of like how the inauguration crowd thing (and to a lesser extent the popular vote) would have blown over a lot quicker if President Trump and his staff had just laughed them off or ignored them instead of lying and attacking people about them?
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by biochem   » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:10 pm

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Starsaber wrote:
biochem wrote:Another example is her horrendous mishandling of the pneumonia last fall. What she should have done was issue a press release that she had pneumonia and that she would be back on the campaign trail in a couple of days. Then in her next few speeches she should have talked about the wonders of antibiotics and how after just a couple of days on them she was as good as new. Then add in some promises to keep funding NIH antibiotic research etc and a week later the story would have been forgotten. Instead she issues 3-4 fake news stories to cover it up,none of which work and which results in every conspiracy theorist in the USA speculate on whether or not she is dying. Her health was a major story for months.


Sort of like how the inauguration crowd thing (and to a lesser extent the popular vote) would have blown over a lot quicker if President Trump and his staff had just laughed them off or ignored them instead of lying and attacking people about them?



Trump is very predictable that way. He's so narcissistic that everything has to be the greatest. But while annoying it's relatively easy to solve. Just divide every I'm the greatest statement by 2. Clintons lies aren't so easy to deconvolute.

Incidently one alternative fact may be right if you count up all the people who live on planet earth (just USA doesn't get you there) who watched the inauguration in any way including physically present, tv, live Internet streaming, delayed tv (on demand etc), delayed Internet streaming (YouTube etc). More people did see his inauguration than any other but unfortunately for the narcissist that alternative fact has more to do with improvement in streaming technology than with him.
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by Starsaber   » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:48 pm

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biochem wrote:
Starsaber wrote:Sort of like how the inauguration crowd thing (and to a lesser extent the popular vote) would have blown over a lot quicker if President Trump and his staff had just laughed them off or ignored them instead of lying and attacking people about them?



Trump is very predictable that way. He's so narcissistic that everything has to be the greatest. But while annoying it's relatively easy to solve. Just divide every I'm the greatest statement by 2. Clintons lies aren't so easy to deconvolute.

Incidently one alternative fact may be right if you count up all the people who live on planet earth (just USA doesn't get you there) who watched the inauguration in any way including physically present, tv, live Internet streaming, delayed tv (on demand etc), delayed Internet streaming (YouTube etc). More people did see his inauguration than any other but unfortunately for the narcissist that alternative fact has more to do with improvement in streaming technology than with him.


Yeah, and to make his narcissism even worse, he doesn't seem to be capable of accepting that people can disagree with him in good faith as opposed to it being some kind of sinister anti-American agenda. And don't take this as support for Hillary on my part. It would be more accurate to say I voted against him than voting in favor of her. If anyone other than Trump had been nominated, I probably would have gone third party (or maybe Republican if they had nominated someone who was moderate on social issues).

And yes, I suppose it could be true that more people watched his inauguration if he actually means that more people were alive in the world during it than any other previous one. :P
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by Eyal   » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:04 pm

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First of all, apologies for the late replay.

PeterZ wrote:How so? The press? They are not checking anyone they agree with and swoon over certain personages like Obama. At least now they are challenging the President rather than looking with adoring eyes at him. The Courts? The 9th circus is standing up nicely to the President.

If you are implying that challenging the press destroys their credibility, then their credibility is much weaker than it needs to be. That is the problem not the challenge.


I was thinking less of challenging and more of outright calling them enemies of the state and attacking the legitimicy of judicial review.

biochem wrote:Another example is her horrendous mishandling of the pneumonia last fall. What she should have done was issue a press release that she had pneumonia and that she would be back on the campaign trail in a couple of days. Then in her next few speeches she should have talked about the wonders of antibiotics and how after just a couple of days on them she was as good as new. Then add in some promises to keep funding NIH antibiotic research etc and a week later the story would have been forgotten. Instead she issues 3-4 fake news stories to cover it up,none of which work and which results in every conspiracy theorist in the USA speculate on whether or not she is dying. Her health was a major story for months.


Her health was a major story before she got pneumonia. While it might have been better if she'd been up front about it, I suspect she was screwed either way. Given the utter bullshit whipped up over her health prior to that (the lesbian cancer thing was particularly inspired) if she'd admitted to having pneumonia she likely would have been accused of tring to cover up something worse anyway. And frankly those latching on to this incident as an example of her dishonesty are IMO reaching - when we want to know a leader's health it's to know if he or she has any long term problems or things which are likely to affect disable them. Mild pneumonia (and it was mild, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to stand there as long as she did*) is transitory and doesn't really count; it's like being angry she didn't disclose a hangnail or a head cold.

*And I expect she'd also have been criticised if she missed the 9/11 memorial.

biochem wrote:Trump is very predictable that way. He's so narcissistic that everything has to be the greatest. But while annoying it's relatively easy to solve. Just divide every I'm the greatest statement by 2. Clintons lies aren't so easy to deconvolute.


The problem is that he's lying about pretty much everything. And attacks I mentioned above on the press and judiciary, coupled with things like accusing a group of perpetrating attacks that never happened**, have in the past lead countries to some pretty dark places.

Incidently one alternative fact may be right if you count up all the people who live on planet earth (just USA doesn't get you there) who watched the inauguration in any way including physically present, tv, live Internet streaming, delayed tv (on demand etc), delayed Internet streaming (YouTube etc). More people did see his inauguration than any other but unfortunately for the narcissist that alternative fact has more to do with improvement in streaming technology than with him.


Except that that wasn't the claim they originally made, given the arguments about the photos. Also, it's not necessarily true (TV viewership, for example, was lower than Obama's inauguration in 2009). As for streaming, it's pretty difficult to tell).

**Although kudos to him for efficiency, I suppose; he's found a way to get most of the political effect of a false-flag attack without actually having to put in the effort to stage that attack.
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:08 pm

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Eyal wrote:First of all, apologies for the late replay.

PeterZ wrote:How so? The press? They are not checking anyone they agree with and swoon over certain personages like Obama. At least now they are challenging the President rather than looking with adoring eyes at him. The Courts? The 9th circus is standing up nicely to the President.

If you are implying that challenging the press destroys their credibility, then their credibility is much weaker than it needs to be. That is the problem not the challenge.


I was thinking less of challenging and more of outright calling them enemies of the state and attacking the legitimicy of judicial review.


Obama attacked a SCOTUS decision during one of his State of the Union addresses. The left got all over I believe Scalia for making a comment captured on Video but not audio. Selective outrage? I think so. As it is President Trump announced his disagreement to the decision. Big deal. It happened before and will again.

President Trump didn't say the Press was an enemy of the State. He called them the enemy of the people. I agree. They are so partisan that the news is reliably pro left propaganda. If you agree with them, all is good. If challenging the Press destroys their credibility, it's about time. If they can begin being honest and regain some semblance of impartiality, the whole country benefits.
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:11 pm

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PeterZ wrote:She emailed her daughter the Benghazi attacks were al Qaida like. That requires planning. She emailed her daughter the night of the attack. She told some of the relatives of the folks that died in Benghazi the video was responsible for the attack and the death of the US personnel. That happened 3 days after the attack. One day later we confirmed that an al Qaida splinter group claimed responsibility for the attack. In a statement no longer on the State Dep website, Clinton mentions the video but does not claim it was responsible for the attack. The statement was posted after the private meeting with the relatives of the victims.

Proof that Clinton lied? No. But she suspected the truth from the beginning. She said nothing while Susan Rice promulgated those lies to the American people.


There is just no penetrating your skull on this one is there?

THOSE WERE NOT LIES.

They were the official CIA intelligence assessments at the time. Geez. As soon as the intel updated, the message to the public updated. Which all happened within days, a totally normal span of time for that process to happen in after a major incident overseas.


The investigations covered all of this. REPEATEDLY.


And FFS, what the hell would even be the point of them lying about it? What advantage do you think they were supposed to be getting that they would go out and lie about any of this?


Can you name me one single time when a terrorist attack against Americans anywhere in the world *decreased* public support for the presiding administration, rather than rallying them around it? Can you? Political administrations worried about PR *love* crying "terrorism". Which is why Trump and his administration can't shut the hell up about it even when there are no attacks happening... they just make them up. But I see you aren't concerned about those actual real life lies about terrorism.


As I said I am morally certain that Clinton lied to the relatives of the attack. She was complicit in perpetuating similar lies made by the administration. All in all I am morally certain she lied about what happened at Benghazi in either of these two ways.


What exactly do you think "morally certain" means? Because from everything you just said it appears you think it means "certain despite all evidence being to the contrary of my preferred position".
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Re: The Trump Administration's War With Reality
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:13 pm

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biochem wrote:Re Clinton and Benghazi

Direct responsibility for the incident itself

-> executive responsibility

She was in charge and she created an environment at State such that the person(s) who made the poor decisions believed that those were the decisions she would want them to make and he/she/they made those decisions believing that the boss (Clinton) would reward them.


No idea what you are even talking about here.


The cover up

She is directly responsible for this one and it is classic Clinton i.e. her default behavior


She is directly responsible for something that EVERY SINGLE INVESTIGATION has established never happened? Really? How does that work exactly?
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