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EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!

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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:16 am

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smr wrote:
Gcomeau, show me the money on Russian Collusion. Oh wait you can't. Show me the hard evidence that is going to change America's mind!


Like I said smr.... they knew you wouldn't actually read the report.

Thanks for proving my point. Because that report has nearly 200 pages detailing collusion. Would you like some excerpts? How about we start with this:

In late July 2016, soon after WikiLeaks's first release of stolen documents, a foreign government contacted the FBI about a May 2016 encounter with Trump Campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos. Papadopoulos had suggested to a representative of that foreign government that the Trump Campaign had received indications from the Russian government that it could assist the Campaign through the anonymous release of information damaging to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. That information prompted the FBI on July 31, 2016, to open an investigation into whether individuals associated with the Trump Campaign were coordinating with the Russian government in its interference activities.


The counter intelligence investigation into the Trump Campaign links to Russia was NOT started because of the Steele Dossier (which, btw, comes out of this report looking pretty damned good). It had already started, because allied intelligence services were throwing up warning flags about shady shit they were seeing with Russia and Trump Campaign personnel. As you have been repeatedly told, and repeatedly ignored.

The IRA later used social media accounts and interest groups to sow discord in the U.S. political system through what it termed "information warfare." The campaign evolved from a generalized program designed in 2014 and 2015 to undermine the U.S . electoral system, to a targeted operation that by early 2016 favored candidate Trump and disparaged candidate Clinton. The IRA' s operation also included the purchase of political advertisements on social media in the names of U.S. persons and entities, as well as the staging of political rallies inside the United States.


Just so we're clear, the Russian efforts were directed to HELP TRUMP WIN. And they tried hard. That is not a point that is under debate. They were not "really colluding with the Democrats" or whatever other insane conspiracy theory the right is currently clinging to.

At the same time that the IRA operation began to focus ·on supporting candidate Trump in early 2016, the Russian government employed a second form of interference: cyber intrusions (hacking) and releases of hacked materials damaging to the Clinton Campaign. The Russian intelligence service known as the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Army (GRU) carried out these operations.


This was not just some random Russian hackers. This was a Russian Military Intelligence cyber warfare operation directed against the US election system.

The presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump ("Trump Campaign" or "Campaign") showed interest in WikiLeaks 's releases of documents and welcomed their otential to damage candidate Clinton. Beginning in June 2016, REDACTED forecast to senior Campaign officials that WikiLeaks would release information damaging to candidate Clinton. WikiLeaks's first release came in July 2016. Around the same time, candidate Trump announced that he hoped Russia would recover emails described as missing from a private server used by Clinton when she was Secretary of State (he later said that he was speaking sarcastically). REDACTED WikiLeaks began releasing Podesta ' s stolen emails on October 7, 2016, less than one hour after a U.S. media outlet released video considered damaging to candidate Trump.


The Trump Campaign had advance knowledge that the release of the stolen materials was coming. They were in communication with those involved in the dissemination activity at a minimum. And the dissemination of those materials was timed to benefit Trump's campaign.

Summer 2016. Russian outreach to the Trump Campaign continued into the summer of 2016, as candidate Trump was becoming the presumptive Republican nominee for President. On June 9, 2016, for example, a Russian lawyer met with senior Trump Campaign officials Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, and campaign chairman Paul Manafort to deliver what the email proposing the meeting had described as "official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary." The materials were offered to Trump Jr. as "part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump." The written communications setting up the meeting showed that the Campaign anticipated receiving information from Russia that could assist candidate Trump's electoral prospects, but the Russian lawyer's presentation did not provide such information.


The Trump Tower meeting, which as has been pointed out to you repeatedly is collusion ALL BY ITSELF. It is the Russian government saying "hey we want to illicitly help your campaign" and the Trump Campaign saying "YAY! We would love that, let's talk!"

And then actually taking the meeting. That is NOT OK.

Separately, on August 2, 2016 , Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort met in New York City with his long-time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik, who the FBI assesses to have ties to Russian intelligence. Kilimnik requested the meeting to deliver in person a peace plan for Ukraine that Manafort acknowledged to the Special Counsel's Office was a "backdoor" way for Russia to control part of eastern Ukraine; both men believed the plan would require candidate Trump 's assent to succeed (were he to be elected President). They also discussed the status of the Trump Campaign and Manafort's strategy for winning Democratic votes in Midwestern states. Months before that meeting, Manafort had caused internal polling data to be shared with Kilimnik, and the sharing continued for some period of time after their August meeting.


So a Russian Intelligence asset delivered a plan to the Trump Campaign Chairman that involves Russia seizing control of eastern Ukraine with Trump's assistance, and Manafort hands back detailed proprietary campaign intel on the election strategy for getting Trump into the presidency and what battleground states are critical to the Russian intelligence asset while at that very moment Russia is running an operation trying to swing the election to Trump.

Yeah, that's totally innocent and not collusion at all right smr?

(Oh, did I mention that in another part of the report Mueller details that Manafort's job when he worked for Depiraska was installing friendly politicians in foreign countries?)

In approximately 2005, Manafort began working for Deripaska, a Russian oligarch who has a global empire involving aluminum and power companies and who is closely aligned with Vladimir Putin. A memorandum describing work that Manafort performed for Deripaska in 2005 regarding the post-Soviet republics referenced the need to brief the Kremlin and the benefits that the work could confer on "the Putin Government." Gates described the work Manafort did for Deripaska as "political risk insurance ," and explained that Deripaska used Manafort to install friendly political officials in countries where Deripaska had business interests.


(Moving out of material in the report for a moment, hey remember when the Trump admin pushed through the lifting of sanctions on Deripaska's businesses over the objections of Democrats and Republicans alike?)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/27/politics ... index.html

Treasury Department lifts sanctions on three Russian firms with ties to Oleg Deripaska

...Earlier this month, the Republican-controlled Senate failed to get the 60 votes needed to move a resolution to stop the lifting of the sanctions with 57 voting in favor and 42 opposed. The House passed its own resolution 362-53 -- a tally that included a majority of Republicans.


Back to the report...

On October 7, 2016, the media released video of candidate Trump speaking in graphic terms about women years earlier, which was considered damaging to his candidacy. Less than an hour later, WikiLeaks made its second release: thousands of John Podesta 's emails that had been stolen by the GRU in late March 2016. The FBI and other U.S. government institutions were at the time continuing their investigation of suspected Russian government efforts to interfere in the presidential election. That same day, October 7, the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued a joint public statement "that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations ." Those "thefts" and the "disclosures " of the hacked materials through online platforms such as WikiLeaks, the statement continued, "are intended to interfere with the US election process."


Again, the stolen material leaks from the Russians were being coordinated to help and protect Trump.

Kirill Dmitriev, the chief executive officer of Russia's sovereign wealth fund, was among the Russians who tried to make contact with the incoming administration. In early December , a business associate steered Dmitriev to Erik Prince, a supporter of the Trump Campaign and an associate of senior Trump advisor Steve Bannon. Dmitriev and Prince later met face-to-face in January 2017 in the Seychelles and discussed U.S.-Russia relations. During the same period , another business associate introduced Dmitriev to a friend of Jared Kushner who had not served on the Campaign or the Transition Team. Dmitriev and Kushner's friend collaborated on a short written reconciliation plan for the United States and Russia, which Dmitriev implied had been cleared through Putin. The friend gave that proposal to Kushner before the inauguration , and Kushner later gave copies to Bannon and incoming Secretary of State Rex Tillerson.


Prince lied his ass off about this meeting to Congress. You can see why. And Kushner is in this up to his neck too. There's plenty of other stuff about him in this report.

On May 17, 2017, Acting Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointed the Special Counsel and authorized him to conduct the investigation that Corney had confirmed in his congressional testimony, as well as matters arising directly from the investigation , and any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a), which generally covers efforts to interfere with or obstruct the investigation.
President Trump reacted negatively to the Specia l Counsel's appointment. He told advisors that it was the end of his presidency, sought to have Attorney General Jefferson (Jeff) Sessions unrecuse from the Russia investigation and to have the Special Counsel removed, and engaged in efforts to curtail the Special Counsel's investigation and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it, including through public and private contacts with potential witnesses.


THAT'S OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. (Which, if you had bothered reading the report, you would know Trump had not been indicted on only because DOJ guidelines don't ALLOW prosecutors to indict sitting presidents so Mueller wrote up this nice detailed report for Congress. But then Barr lied his ass off about what the report said in the hopes people like you would never listen to anything else after that.
(And smr... innocent people don't think someone being appointed to investigate their conduct means "the end of my presidency".)

And as for the finding on collusion, the report did not clear the campaign on that either. It did NOT find that the campaign had not engaged in a criminal conspiracy with the Russians. What it found was that it was unable to assemble enough evidence of that conspiracy to be confident it could meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard at trial. In part because:

Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference.

...

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.
Accordingly, while this report embodies factual and legal determinations that the Office believes to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible, given these identified gaps, the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report.


People around Trump repeatedly lied to prosecutors about their Russia interactions, and withheld and destroyed evidence to impede the investigation. Which is why the report does NOT say there was "no collusion". It addresses a very specific narrow legal question about whether all the evidence they had of collusion would be enough to meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in a criminal trial of a specific criminal conspiracy to assist the Russians in their election interference.

And Mueller thought it would come up short. That is a LONG way away from "no collusion". There is collusion freaking EVERYWHERE in this report. I just provided a few choice highlights.

(And Mueller clearly does NOT think the obstruction of justice evidence comes up short, that entire section is clearly written for Congress to consider for impeachment. Not that the GOP in the senate have the integrity to impeach no matter what the evidence says. if Trump wasn't a sitting president that the DoJ does not allow the indictment of he would be charged already. On this AND the felony campaign finance violations we already know he committed.)

READ. THE. REPORT.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:51 am

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Oh, and then of course there is the fun little cherry on top. Mr. "I have one of the world's great memories" apparently developed early onset Alzheimer's when it came to his answers to any of the questions Mueller asked him directly. After refusing to testify in person and allowing only answers to written questions to be given with extensive consultation with his lawyers on every single answer he wrote.... Trump "could not remember" a damn thing that happened the entire campaign or in the early days of his presidency apparently because that was the vast majority of his answers. He claimed he couldn't remember important recent details of his interactions over 30 times.

(Because if you say something didn't happen then they have evidence it did you can be charged with perjury, but if you just say you "can't remember" if it happened it's a lot harder to catch you in the lie because trying to prove you did remember is extremely difficult)
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:42 pm

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where is the proof...the hard evidence...the type of evidence that says x committed y crime. Oh wait, you have no proof just allegations. So you read the whole report. Yeah,I call BS. You did not even read the Trump Dossier. You never read any the Lisa Paige testimony entered into the Congressional Record and numerous other Federal Officials testimony read into the Congressional Record. Guess what, I have record that testimony. I have not read the Mueller Report and I will not be reading that for a least a week or two. However, I will be reading the report because I am a political junkie and I'm going to enjoy the investigations into Hilary, Obama, and the corrupt officials that tried a coup de tat in America.


gcomeau wrote:
smr wrote:
Gcomeau, show me the money on Russian Collusion. Oh wait you can't. Show me the hard evidence that is going to change America's mind!


Like I said smr.... they knew you wouldn't actually read the report.

Thanks for proving my point. Because that report has nearly 200 pages detailing collusion. Would you like some excerpts? How about we start with this:

In late July 2016, soon after WikiLeaks's first release of stolen documents, a foreign government contacted the FBI about a May 2016 encounter with Trump Campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos. Papadopoulos had suggested to a representative of that foreign government that the Trump Campaign had received indications from the Russian government that it could assist the Campaign through the anonymous release of information damaging to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. That information prompted the FBI on July 31, 2016, to open an investigation into whether individuals associated with the Trump Campaign were coordinating with the Russian government in its interference activities.


The counter intelligence investigation into the Trump Campaign links to Russia was NOT started because of the Steele Dossier (which, btw, comes out of this report looking pretty damned good). It had already started, because allied intelligence services were throwing up warning flags about shady shit they were seeing with Russia and Trump Campaign personnel. As you have been repeatedly told, and repeatedly ignored.

The IRA later used social media accounts and interest groups to sow discord in the U.S. political system through what it termed "information warfare." The campaign evolved from a generalized program designed in 2014 and 2015 to undermine the U.S . electoral system, to a targeted operation that by early 2016 favored candidate Trump and disparaged candidate Clinton. The IRA' s operation also included the purchase of political advertisements on social media in the names of U.S. persons and entities, as well as the staging of political rallies inside the United States.


Just so we're clear, the Russian efforts were directed to HELP TRUMP WIN. And they tried hard. That is not a point that is under debate. They were not "really colluding with the Democrats" or whatever other insane conspiracy theory the right is currently clinging to.

At the same time that the IRA operation began to focus ·on supporting candidate Trump in early 2016, the Russian government employed a second form of interference: cyber intrusions (hacking) and releases of hacked materials damaging to the Clinton Campaign. The Russian intelligence service known as the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Army (GRU) carried out these operations.


This was not just some random Russian hackers. This was a Russian Military Intelligence cyber warfare operation directed against the US election system.

The presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump ("Trump Campaign" or "Campaign") showed interest in WikiLeaks 's releases of documents and welcomed their otential to damage candidate Clinton. Beginning in June 2016, REDACTED forecast to senior Campaign officials that WikiLeaks would release information damaging to candidate Clinton. WikiLeaks's first release came in July 2016. Around the same time, candidate Trump announced that he hoped Russia would recover emails described as missing from a private server used by Clinton when she was Secretary of State (he later said that he was speaking sarcastically). REDACTED WikiLeaks began releasing Podesta ' s stolen emails on October 7, 2016, less than one hour after a U.S. media outlet released video considered damaging to candidate Trump.


The Trump Campaign had advance knowledge that the release of the stolen materials was coming. They were in communication with those involved in the dissemination activity at a minimum. And the dissemination of those materials was timed to benefit Trump's campaign.

Summer 2016. Russian outreach to the Trump Campaign continued into the summer of 2016, as candidate Trump was becoming the presumptive Republican nominee for President. On June 9, 2016, for example, a Russian lawyer met with senior Trump Campaign officials Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, and campaign chairman Paul Manafort to deliver what the email proposing the meeting had described as "official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary." The materials were offered to Trump Jr. as "part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump." The written communications setting up the meeting showed that the Campaign anticipated receiving information from Russia that could assist candidate Trump's electoral prospects, but the Russian lawyer's presentation did not provide such information.


The Trump Tower meeting, which as has been pointed out to you repeatedly is collusion ALL BY ITSELF. It is the Russian government saying "hey we want to illicitly help your campaign" and the Trump Campaign saying "YAY! We would love that, let's talk!"

And then actually taking the meeting. That is NOT OK.

Separately, on August 2, 2016 , Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort met in New York City with his long-time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik, who the FBI assesses to have ties to Russian intelligence. Kilimnik requested the meeting to deliver in person a peace plan for Ukraine that Manafort acknowledged to the Special Counsel's Office was a "backdoor" way for Russia to control part of eastern Ukraine; both men believed the plan would require candidate Trump 's assent to succeed (were he to be elected President). They also discussed the status of the Trump Campaign and Manafort's strategy for winning Democratic votes in Midwestern states. Months before that meeting, Manafort had caused internal polling data to be shared with Kilimnik, and the sharing continued for some period of time after their August meeting.


So a Russian Intelligence asset delivered a plan to the Trump Campaign Chairman that involves Russia seizing control of eastern Ukraine with Trump's assistance, and Manafort hands back detailed proprietary campaign intel on the election strategy for getting Trump into the presidency and what battleground states are critical to the Russian intelligence asset while at that very moment Russia is running an operation trying to swing the election to Trump.

Yeah, that's totally innocent and not collusion at all right smr?

(Oh, did I mention that in another part of the report Mueller details that Manafort's job when he worked for Depiraska was installing friendly politicians in foreign countries?)

In approximately 2005, Manafort began working for Deripaska, a Russian oligarch who has a global empire involving aluminum and power companies and who is closely aligned with Vladimir Putin. A memorandum describing work that Manafort performed for Deripaska in 2005 regarding the post-Soviet republics referenced the need to brief the Kremlin and the benefits that the work could confer on "the Putin Government." Gates described the work Manafort did for Deripaska as "political risk insurance ," and explained that Deripaska used Manafort to install friendly political officials in countries where Deripaska had business interests.


(Moving out of material in the report for a moment, hey remember when the Trump admin pushed through the lifting of sanctions on Deripaska's businesses over the objections of Democrats and Republicans alike?)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/27/politics ... index.html

Treasury Department lifts sanctions on three Russian firms with ties to Oleg Deripaska

...Earlier this month, the Republican-controlled Senate failed to get the 60 votes needed to move a resolution to stop the lifting of the sanctions with 57 voting in favor and 42 opposed. The House passed its own resolution 362-53 -- a tally that included a majority of Republicans.


Back to the report...

On October 7, 2016, the media released video of candidate Trump speaking in graphic terms about women years earlier, which was considered damaging to his candidacy. Less than an hour later, WikiLeaks made its second release: thousands of John Podesta 's emails that had been stolen by the GRU in late March 2016. The FBI and other U.S. government institutions were at the time continuing their investigation of suspected Russian government efforts to interfere in the presidential election. That same day, October 7, the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued a joint public statement "that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations ." Those "thefts" and the "disclosures " of the hacked materials through online platforms such as WikiLeaks, the statement continued, "are intended to interfere with the US election process."


Again, the stolen material leaks from the Russians were being coordinated to help and protect Trump.

Kirill Dmitriev, the chief executive officer of Russia's sovereign wealth fund, was among the Russians who tried to make contact with the incoming administration. In early December , a business associate steered Dmitriev to Erik Prince, a supporter of the Trump Campaign and an associate of senior Trump advisor Steve Bannon. Dmitriev and Prince later met face-to-face in January 2017 in the Seychelles and discussed U.S.-Russia relations. During the same period , another business associate introduced Dmitriev to a friend of Jared Kushner who had not served on the Campaign or the Transition Team. Dmitriev and Kushner's friend collaborated on a short written reconciliation plan for the United States and Russia, which Dmitriev implied had been cleared through Putin. The friend gave that proposal to Kushner before the inauguration , and Kushner later gave copies to Bannon and incoming Secretary of State Rex Tillerson.


Prince lied his ass off about this meeting to Congress. You can see why. And Kushner is in this up to his neck too. There's plenty of other stuff about him in this report.

On May 17, 2017, Acting Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointed the Special Counsel and authorized him to conduct the investigation that Corney had confirmed in his congressional testimony, as well as matters arising directly from the investigation , and any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a), which generally covers efforts to interfere with or obstruct the investigation.
President Trump reacted negatively to the Specia l Counsel's appointment. He told advisors that it was the end of his presidency, sought to have Attorney General Jefferson (Jeff) Sessions unrecuse from the Russia investigation and to have the Special Counsel removed, and engaged in efforts to curtail the Special Counsel's investigation and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it, including through public and private contacts with potential witnesses.


THAT'S OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. (Which, if you had bothered reading the report, you would know Trump had not been indicted on only because DOJ guidelines don't ALLOW prosecutors to indict sitting presidents so Mueller wrote up this nice detailed report for Congress. But then Barr lied his ass off about what the report said in the hopes people like you would never listen to anything else after that.
(And smr... innocent people don't think someone being appointed to investigate their conduct means "the end of my presidency".)

And as for the finding on collusion, the report did not clear the campaign on that either. It did NOT find that the campaign had not engaged in a criminal conspiracy with the Russians. What it found was that it was unable to assemble enough evidence of that conspiracy to be confident it could meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard at trial. In part because:

Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference.

...

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.
Accordingly, while this report embodies factual and legal determinations that the Office believes to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible, given these identified gaps, the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report.


People around Trump repeatedly lied to prosecutors about their Russia interactions, and withheld and destroyed evidence to impede the investigation. Which is why the report does NOT say there was "no collusion". It addresses a very specific narrow legal question about whether all the evidence they had of collusion would be enough to meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in a criminal trial of a specific criminal conspiracy to assist the Russians in their election interference.

And Mueller thought it would come up short. That is a LONG way away from "no collusion". There is collusion freaking EVERYWHERE in this report. I just provided a few choice highlights.

(And Mueller clearly does NOT think the obstruction of justice evidence comes up short, that entire section is clearly written for Congress to consider for impeachment. Not that the GOP in the senate have the integrity to impeach no matter what the evidence says. if Trump wasn't a sitting president that the DoJ does not allow the indictment of he would be charged already. On this AND the felony campaign finance violations we already know he committed.)

READ. THE. REPORT.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 pm

gcomeau
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Posts: 2489
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smr wrote:where is the proof...the hard evidence...the type of evidence that says x committed y crime.


IN THE FUCKING REPORT. You just ignored the entire post you are replying to in order to write that question.

So you read the whole report. Yeah,I call BS.


I am *reading* the entire report. I did not say I had finished.

You did not even read the Trump Dossier.


If you are referring to the Steele Dossier, I read it in it's entirety.

You never read any the Lisa Paige testimony entered into the Congressional Record and numerous other Federal Officials testimony read into the Congressional Record.


Again, read it all. Along with the Glenn Simpson testimony which I'm confident you haven't read either.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:45 pm

smr
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Posts: 1510
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:18 pm

Question: Did Glynn Simpson take the 5th after the lawyer was recalled before Congressional Committees. The answer is yes the took the 5th. I wonder if he is one of the 8 people or the additional 13 people being referred to for prosecution. We know Cohen lied to Congress on multiple times. Devin Nunes is a busy little beaver.

Just finished downloading the Mueller Report from Barnes and Noble and hopefully I will done with this sordid crap!

1) No collusion From Trump, Family, or the Trump Team
2) Part 2 Page 2: Can not prove Obstruction

Thank you very much going to sleep!












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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Daryl   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:48 am

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Reading this page of comments back and forth it becomes obvious that there are several mature and intelligent people doing open minded research, and one arguing with them by acting like a spoilt 4 year old. Smr, you can't just look at all of that and dismiss it with no logical mental process of rebuttal.
My take on it is that at some stage in the future Trump won't be President and the Democrats will control both houses. At that point he is toast for obstruction of justice.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:16 pm

smr
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Posts: 1510
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:18 pm

1) Their was NO RUSSIAN COLLUSION!
Why?
Their is no such thing in US law as Collusion.
Ok. What would you charge Trump under? Conspiracy!
Did Trump or his Campaign commit Conspiracy?
A resounding "No!"

So, that concludes Part 1. Now Part 2 their is going to have wide range of opinions on Obstruction.

1) No charges of conspiracy (collusion) means no charges of obstruction.

2) Another legal theory, their can not be any charges of Obstruction. If the charges violate a person's rights and/or violate the Presidential Powers in pursuit of his Duties, No charges can be filed on Obstruction.

3) Third Legal Theory, their could be charges of obstruction without an underlying charge. This legal theory would have been the hardest standard to meet because this is untried legal theory.

Barr ruled on 1 and 2.

Mueller's team was divided. Some favored 1 and 2. Others favored 3. If Congress decides to Impeach Trump, Part 2 was written as a roadmap for the Demoncrats if they choose the road of impeachment.

So, this charge of Obstruction comes down to a person's bias and political beliefs because their are competing legal theories.

Happy Daryl!






Daryl wrote:Reading this page of comments back and forth it becomes obvious that there are several mature and intelligent people doing open minded research, and one arguing with them by acting like a spoilt 4 year old. Smr, you can't just look at all of that and dismiss it with no logical mental process of rebuttal.
My take on it is that at some stage in the future Trump won't be President and the Democrats will control both houses. At that point he is toast for obstruction of justice.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Daryl   » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:07 am

Daryl
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Posts: 2969
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but "Their" is a third person possessive pronoun. You probably meant to use "There" as in "over there" or "there is".

I'm far from an expert on US law, but I would assume that setting up a very expensive inquiry to determine among other things that there is or is not collusion would imply that it is recognised under your law. Certainly is in ours.

smr wrote:1) Their was NO RUSSIAN COLLUSION!
Why?
Their is no such thing in US law as Collusion.
Ok. What would you charge Trump under? Conspiracy!
Did Trump or his Campaign commit Conspiracy?
A resounding "No!"

So, that concludes Part 1. Now Part 2 their is going to have wide range of opinions on Obstruction.

1) No charges of conspiracy (collusion) means no charges of obstruction.

2) Another legal theory, their can not be any charges of Obstruction. If the charges violate a person's rights and/or violate the Presidential Powers in pursuit of his Duties, No charges can be filed on Obstruction.

3) Third Legal Theory, their could be charges of obstruction without an underlying charge. This legal theory would have been the hardest standard to meet because this is untried legal theory.

Barr ruled on 1 and 2.

Mueller's team was divided. Some favored 1 and 2. Others favored 3. If Congress decides to Impeach Trump, Part 2 was written as a roadmap for the Demoncrats if they choose the road of impeachment.

So, this charge of Obstruction comes down to a person's bias and political beliefs because their are competing legal theories.

Happy Daryl!






Daryl wrote:Reading this page of comments back and forth it becomes obvious that there are several mature and intelligent people doing open minded research, and one arguing with them by acting like a spoilt 4 year old. Smr, you can't just look at all of that and dismiss it with no logical mental process of rebuttal.
My take on it is that at some stage in the future Trump won't be President and the Democrats will control both houses. At that point he is toast for obstruction of justice.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:09 pm

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Daryl wrote:Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but "Their" is a third person possessive pronoun. You probably meant to use "There" as in "over there" or "there is".

I'm far from an expert on US law, but I would assume that setting up a very expensive inquiry to determine among other things that there is or is not collusion would imply that it is recognised under your law. Certainly is in ours.


He's quibbling about terms. The specific legal term covered by statute is conspiracy to engage in election interference... which people are short handing as "collusion".

Mueller found *loads* of shady, unethical, disloyal conduct involving the Trump Campaign and the Russians that falls under the general concept of collusion that any American who gives the tiniest of shits about loyalty to their country should consider 100% disqualifying in anyone wanting to be president and a severe compromising of national security, and he laid it out in detail. But proving active coordinated conspiracy to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold is a much higher bar to clear and Mueller judged the available evidence came up short of that standard while noting the investigation was actively hindered by admin officials constantly lying, refusing to cooperate, and in some cases destroying evidence. (You know, like a presidential administration that definitely didn't collude with the Russians would obviously do to a critical counter intelligence investigation being conducted after a hostile foreign government attacked the US election system)

Then he laid out an ironclad case for obstruction, noted explicitly that DOJ guidelines prevented him from indicting the president on it, then stated:

"With respect to whether the President can be found to have obstructed justice by exercising his powers under Article II of the Constitution, we concluded that Congress has the authority to prohibit a President's corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice,"


This was a clear indication Mueller was handing off all the evidence of Obstruction to Congress to deal with.

Then Barr tried to grab that authority for himself to protect Trump... as he was appointed to do... and just declared "no obstruction" as soon as he got the report before anyone could read it.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:53 am

Daryl
Admiral

Posts: 2969
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Deniability.
Like King Henry had when he said "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest!", and Thomas Becket got the chop, but Henry could say I didn't expressly ask them to do that.
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