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EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!

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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:04 am

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One thing Daryl missed.
The medicare payment for any procedure is fixed, with doctors able to charge over that amount. (I think the Americans call it co-pay?)

Some will charge a higher amount, but not charge pensioners the co-pay.
And of course personal insurance can cover any co-pay.

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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:37 am

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Daryl wrote:In the past year I've had numerous hospital stays, a pacemaker, port a cath, six months chemo, and various world class treatments. Cost $0.

Cost TO YOU $0. Means somebody else paid for it.

NOTHING IS FUCKING FREE!

Somebody has to pay for everything. If those making the decisions don't have to pay the bills, if they are stupid or self-deluded enough to believe that they are giving away 'free' stuff, they will make bad decisions that will end up costing us all more than we can afford. This principle applies to everything, not just medicine.

For any health care system to work, there has to be some element of personal choice for the people who have to use the system. People have to be free to avoid the parts of it that suck. Everything about 0bamaCare removes those choices. You can't choose your doctor. You can't choose your coverage. Fifty-year-old MEN are required to buy maternity insurance! Twenty-year-olds have to be insured for dementia and Alzheimer's!

And why — WHY — should an employer pay for your medical insurance? They don't pay for your house insurance, or your car insurance, which would actually make a tiny bit of sense because you drive it to work. Over 80% of health insurance is provided by employers through bulk employee plans. This distorts the market, making it almost impossible to get reasonably priced medical insurance on your own. If you get laid off, not only have you got no money, you have no insurance and are stuck trying to buy it in a market that's rigged against you.
———————————
Government tries to solve every problem by taking people's choices away.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Eyal   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:47 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Daryl wrote:In the past year I've had numerous hospital stays, a pacemaker, port a cath, six months chemo, and various world class treatments. Cost $0.

Cost TO YOU $0. Means somebody else paid for it.

NOTHING IS FUCKING FREE!

Somebody has to pay for everything. If those making the decisions don't have to pay the bills, if they are stupid or self-deluded enough to believe that they are giving away 'free' stuff, they will make bad decisions that will end up costing us all more than we can afford. This principle applies to everything, not just medicine.

For any health care system to work, there has to be some element of personal choice for the people who have to use the system. People have to be free to avoid the parts of it that suck. Everything about 0bamaCare removes those choices. You can't choose your doctor. You can't choose your coverage. Fifty-year-old MEN are required to buy maternity insurance! Twenty-year-olds have to be insured for dementia and Alzheimer's!


Well yes, that's how insurance works. The entire concept is based on spreading the cost for a relative few people over a large payer pool.

(also, I wasn't aware you could be insured for Alzheimer's and dementia)

And why — WHY — should an employer pay for your medical insurance? They don't pay for your house insurance, or your car insurance, which would actually make a tiny bit of sense because you drive it to work. Over 80% of health insurance is provided by employers through bulk employee plans. This distorts the market, making it almost impossible to get reasonably priced medical insurance on your own. If you get laid off, not only have you got no money, you have no insurance and are stuck trying to buy it in a market that's rigged against you.


We do it differently in that public healthcare is paid for via a health tax, but your employer also contributes per employee. However, employers don't actually provide a plan (not for public healthcare, some employers - such as mine - offer additional and optional private insurance plans). That prevents people from being bound to their employer's plan (private insurance not via your employer isn't particularly expensive either - if I was on my family's plan rather than my employer-provided one it would cost ~$100/month for our family of four).

I should note that it actually is in the employers' interest to maintain a healthy workforce, if your people are often sick it won't do wonders for their productivity...
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Michael Everett   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

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From here.

aairfccha wrote:...available online with no protection whatsoever: a data set of nearly 200 million people containing rather private and personal information. Yikes! :shock:

In what is the largest known data exposure of its kind, UpGuard’s Cyber Risk Team can now confirm that a misconfigured database containing the sensitive personal details of over 198 million American voters was left exposed to the internet by a firm working on behalf of the Republican National Committee (RNC) in their efforts to elect Donald Trump. The data, which was stored in a publicly accessible cloud server owned by Republican data firm Deep Root Analytics, included 1.1 terabytes of entirely unsecured personal information compiled by DRA and at least two other Republican contractors, TargetPoint Consulting, Inc. and Data Trust. In total, the personal information of potentially near all of America’s 200 million registered voters was exposed, including names, dates of birth, home addresses, phone numbers, and voter registration details, as well as data described as “modeled” voter ethnicities and religions.

https://www.upguard.com/breaches/the-rnc-files

I highly recommend to read the entire article. For me, one alarm bell kept going off after the other.


Okay. So, if this is true (and it looks like it probably is) anyone else agree it puts the Clinton E-mail Server furor in the shade?
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:52 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Daryl wrote:In the past year I've had numerous hospital stays, a pacemaker, port a cath, six months chemo, and various world class treatments. Cost $0.

Cost TO YOU $0. Means somebody else paid for it.

NOTHING IS FUCKING FREE!


EVERYBODY FUCKING KNOWS THIS

FFS, When people say free in the context of universal health care they mean free at point of service. Why the hell do people constantly feel the need to act like they are unaware of this and deliver condescending lectures about how it's actually being paid for. Of fucking course it's being paid for that's the whole goddamn point of the system.


Geez.

And it's being paid for far more efficiently than the clusterfuck of the US privatized system is ever going to manage. Ever.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:47 pm

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Oh, and if you actually read the post, 2% tax during his working lifetime since the scheme started around 40 years ago (and possibly still if Daryl is taking income from investments. In my case I don't), and private health insurance payments.


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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:26 am

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I never claimed it was free, even explained how it was funded, and yes I'm still paying a small amount in retirement, and as a higher saleried worker paid lots when working. I often commented that every year I paid much more than I claimed.
What I tried to point out is that it is quite efficient compared to any past, current or proposed US system. The safety net base has no for profit companies involved in organising it, and the fixed fees keep doctors somewhat more honest.
My additional private insurance is actually run as a mutual non profit organisation, that is primarily for ex Defence personnel.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by The E   » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:54 am

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Daryl wrote:What I tried to point out is that it is quite efficient compared to any past, current or proposed US system. The safety net base has no for profit companies involved in organising it, and the fixed fees keep doctors somewhat more honest.


This is the important bit. By having everyone pay a little bit into a common pool that's covering everyone (yes, both the people who are never sick and the people who need 24/7 medical care), noone is unduly burdened.

So, sure, in a single-payer system, you are going to end up paying for services you personally do not need. But, on the flipside, you are also paying much, much less for what you do need than what you would otherwise have to.

This whole concept of "everyone pay only for what they need" doesn't work. It has never worked. Large parts of the american right seem oblivious to this, just as they are oblivious to the positive benefits a comprehensive social security net has on the community (of which universal health care is only one part).
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Fireflair   » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:56 pm

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Posts: 416
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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Daryl wrote:In the past year I've had numerous hospital stays, a pacemaker, port a cath, six months chemo, and various world class treatments. Cost $0.

Cost TO YOU $0. Means somebody else paid for it.

NOTHING IS FUCKING FREE!

Somebody has to pay for everything. If those making the decisions don't have to pay the bills, if they are stupid or self-deluded enough to believe that they are giving away 'free' stuff, they will make bad decisions that will end up costing us all more than we can afford. This principle applies to everything, not just medicine.

For any health care system to work, there has to be some element of personal choice for the people who have to use the system. People have to be free to avoid the parts of it that suck. Everything about 0bamaCare removes those choices. You can't choose your doctor. You can't choose your coverage. Fifty-year-old MEN are required to buy maternity insurance! Twenty-year-olds have to be insured for dementia and Alzheimer's!

And why — WHY — should an employer pay for your medical insurance? They don't pay for your house insurance, or your car insurance, which would actually make a tiny bit of sense because you drive it to work. Over 80% of health insurance is provided by employers through bulk employee plans. This distorts the market, making it almost impossible to get reasonably priced medical insurance on your own. If you get laid off, not only have you got no money, you have no insurance and are stuck trying to buy it in a market that's rigged against you.
———————————
Government tries to solve every problem by taking people's choices away.


Employers started paying for medical coverage in the late 1920's and early 1930's. For good reasons. One, it enticed people to work for them as a benefit for being there. Two, the cost to individuals to have an employer policy was far cheaper because the cost was spread across all employees and shared by the employer. Three, it was added to what you made, so the employer didn't pay you as much, but you got health coverage without being taxed on added income (namely the part of the health care coverage which the employer pays for.) Four, providing health care coverage became a tax break for companies, letting them save money internally as well.

To re-enforce this, labor groups in the 60's petitioned hard to maintain employer health care coverage. There have been a number of attempts over the last hundred years to go to single payer or nationalized health care before the ACA was pulled off by the Obama administration.

Those reasons still apply today and the type of health coverage a company provides is considered a very important benefit as it can be considered a de facto part of your paycheck. If my coverage covers 90% of all costs and I have kids, it's saving me, personally, a bundle. Just on basic things like physicals for school, routine health care visits, etc.

The reason employers don't cover car insurance or the like is equally simple, it's not needed by the majority of people. Most people want and need medical coverage to reduce their expenses over time. Young people need coverage less than older people, generally, but the idea is to balance that need out by spreading the insurance costs over a wide range of age, sex and other factors. How car insurance, to use your example, isn't needed. I can get anywhere I need to go by public transportation, if I wanted. I choose to have a car. I don't choose if I get sick or not.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Imaginos1892   » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:15 pm

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Fireflair wrote:The reason employers don't cover car insurance or the like is equally simple, it's not needed by the majority of people. Most people want and need medical coverage to reduce their expenses over time. Young people need coverage less than older people, generally, but the idea is to balance that need out by spreading the insurance costs over a wide range of age, sex and other factors. How car insurance, to use your example, isn't needed. I can get anywhere I need to go by public transportation, if I wanted. I choose to have a car.

There are few places in the U.S. where public transit doesn't suck diseased donkey cock. I was without a vehicle for almost two weeks once. I could drive to work in 35-40 minutes. Taking the bus, a train and another train took well over three hours. Each way. Especially since I could see the train I had to catch leave the station just before the one I was on got there. EVERY. FUCKING. TIME. Obviously the scheduling was done by the government.

In fact, if you don't own a vehicle, you're at a big disadvantage looking for a job. Most employers do not consider public transportation a reliable way to get to work.
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