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EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!

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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon May 22, 2017 2:04 am

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gcomeau wrote:
But that isn't what happened. Stop getting your news from Trump's twitter feed.


:roll:

I don´t even use twitter, EVER, as i consider it useless, trying to have any form of debate over a medium with extremely limited length of text is utterly stupid, reality cannot actually be nixed down into snippy and proper little headlines. Twitter is a plague on politics.

And i wouldn´t follow Trump anywhere even if i was paid for it. I wouldn´t follow him even under threat.


But you see, every time massmedia shouts things a bit too loudly and rabidly, i tend to take a few minutes extra to look if it is just headline fever, or if its another witchhunt.

The funny thing about massmedia and Trump is that he's getting hounded in so many ways and for so many real AND fake issues that its getting very pathetic.

Yes, he´s a basic archcapitalist creep, big news, that doesn't justify circular news blowing up various rumours and claims about him.

>90% of the "evidence" so far about Russian involvement is complete bullshit, based on media claims that comes from nothing and nowhere, and what little is for real is so suspect that anyone actually involved in law should be embarassed by it.


And as i just noted to eeyal, the democrats have taken the mudslinging campaign into outright warfare against Trump, and it really is disgusting to see, no matter how much i would prefer to be rid of Trump, i no longer have any belief that matters would be better with Hillary as president.

Obama´s continued warmongering and use of coups and subversive activity whenever a nation didn´t obey orders was bad enough of a disappointment, but in the last 6 months i have gained enough information to suggest that Hillary was the main force behind those, which suggests that a president Hillary would be even worse.

And i don't like people that want to start wars. Surprisingly, i actually consider it worse than corrupt egocentric assholes.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by gcomeau   » Mon May 22, 2017 11:45 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
gcomeau wrote:
But that isn't what happened. Stop getting your news from Trump's twitter feed.


:roll:

I don´t even use twitter, EVER, as i consider it useless, trying to have any form of debate over a medium with extremely limited length of text is utterly stupid, reality cannot actually be nixed down into snippy and proper little headlines. Twitter is a plague on politics.

And i wouldn´t follow Trump anywhere even if i was paid for it. I wouldn´t follow him even under threat.


Good to hear...

So where the heck did that claim that the FBI said in front of the Senate that there was no evidence of the crime being investigated come from? Because that sure as hell didn't happen, and Trump is the one saying it did.

But you see, every time massmedia shouts things a bit too loudly and rabidly, i tend to take a few minutes extra to look if it is just headline fever, or if its another witchhunt.


Uh-huh... and in this case you looked... where? Because I'll say right now, it wasn't the testimony transcript.

>90% of the "evidence" so far about Russian involvement is complete bullshit, based on media claims that comes from nothing and nowhere, and what little is for real is so suspect that anyone actually involved in law should be embarassed by it.


Is this reference to more of your "I'm no hacker but I know more than all of US cyber (and other) intelligence about whether there is real evidence of this" talk?




(In the meantime, apparently Flynn is now refusing a Senate subpoena invoking 5th amendment rights against self incrimination...)
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:23 am

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What crime has been committed? Please use evidence that any normal sitting US attorney would happily take before a standard jury not hearsay or anomalous source(s). This hysterical witch hunt has gone on for 9 months and that's 8 months too long. At least with Hilary, I can point to laws that were knowingly breached to justify prosecuting her.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:09 am

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smr wrote:At least with Hilary, I can point to laws that were knowingly breached to justify prosecuting her.

The same laws that several of Trump's aides also broke?
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:46 am

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Make the case, point to the broken laws, and present the evidence not hearsay because I will be happy to jump on the bulldozer and push them into the sea! Is this the case like one democratic senator alleges a lot of smoke about Russia but then he says that their is no smoking gun.


Michael Everett wrote:
smr wrote:At least with Hilary, I can point to laws that were knowingly breached to justify prosecuting her.

The same laws that several of Trump's aides also broke?
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by Annachie   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:46 am

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He allegedly asked the director of the FBI to drop an investigation, then sacked the director for saying no.

That is prima facie Obstruction of Justice.



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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by smr   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:56 am

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So, does evidence now mean allegations and innuendos or facts! I don't care how you feel about a person...I want good evidence that will hold up in a court of law. Do you need me to copy and paste the definition of evidence and facts? Make the case...because the Democrats would have done it by now. They would be arguing the merits of the case before the full Senate!

Annachie wrote:He allegedly asked the director of the FBI to drop an investigation, then sacked the director for saying no.

That is prima facie Obstruction of Justice.


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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by The E   » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:45 am

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smr wrote:So, does evidence now mean allegations and innuendos or facts! I don't care how you feel about a person...I want good evidence that will hold up in a court of law. Do you need me to copy and paste the definition of evidence and facts? Make the case...because the Democrats would have done it by now. They would be arguing the merits of the case before the full Senate!


Until Comey testifies before Congress or the relevant recordings are subpoenaed, all we have are allegations.

smr, what do you think we are? We aren't professional prosecutors or investigators. All we have to go on is publically available reporting, same as you; And while you are seemingly inclined to take everything said publically about this affair with a grain of salt, some of us are more inclined to take the reporters by their word.

You are railing against us for not following the same evidentiary standards that are used in judicial proceedings when we are not actually part of any judicial process.

Also, I would remind you that the Clinton impeachment proceedings were initiated based on an assumption "that a President could be removed for any misconduct that indicated that he did not possess the requisite honor, integrity, and character to be trusted to carry out his functions in a manner free from corruption." (Source).
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by The E   » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:39 am

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smr wrote:So, does evidence now mean allegations and innuendos or facts! I don't care how you feel about a person...I want good evidence that will hold up in a court of law. Do you need me to copy and paste the definition of evidence and facts? Make the case...because the Democrats would have done it by now. They would be arguing the merits of the case before the full Senate!


So, Comey's preliminary testimony is out. In it, he describes attempts by Trump to persuade him to end an investigation.

For example:
The President then returned to the topic of Mike Flynn, saying, “He is a good guy and has been through a lot.” He repeated that Flynn hadn’t done anything wrong on his calls with the Russians, but had misled the Vice President.
He then said, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.” I replied only that “he is a good guy.” (In fact, I had a positive experience dealing with Mike Flynn when he was a colleague as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency at the beginning of my term at FBI.) I did not say I would “let this go.”


On the morning of March 30, the President called me at the FBI. He described the Russia investigation as “a cloud” that was impairing his ability to act on behalf of the country. He said he had nothing to do with Russia, had not been involved with hookers in Russia, and had always assumed he was being recorded when in Russia. He asked what we could do to “lift the cloud.” I responded that we were investigating the matter as quickly as we could, and that there would be great benefit, if we didn’t find anything, to our having done the work well. He agreed, but then re-emphasized the problems this was causing him.


So, important things to keep in mind about the crime of obstruction of justice. It is defined as (In 18 U.S.C. 1512 (b):

(b) Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to—
(1) influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;
(2) cause or induce any person to—
(A) withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding;
(B) alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the object’s integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;
(C) evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding; or
(D) be absent from an official proceeding to which such person has been summoned by legal process; or
(3) hinder, delay, or prevent the communication to a law enforcement officer or judge of the United States of information relating to the commission or possible commission of a Federal offense or a violation of conditions of probation [1] supervised release,,[1] parole, or release pending judicial proceedings;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
(Emphasis mine)

So. That's pretty clear-cut, in legal terms.

EDIT: Of course, don't take my word for it. Read this opinion piece by one of the Watergate prosecutors.
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Re: EXTRY! EXTRY! IMPEACHMENT IMMINENT!
Post by robert132   » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:50 pm

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Annachie wrote:He allegedly asked the director of the FBI to drop an investigation, then sacked the director for saying no.

That is prima facie Obstruction of Justice.



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Sorry, but simply firing the Director does not stop an FBI investigation, ergo no Obstruction.

There's also this, both the FBI Director and the Attorney General work directly for the President, they are NOT in fact independent.

If he wishes to or thinks he has reason the Pres can order an investigation opened and he can order one halted, and it's legal.

But he didn't do that. Ergo again, no Obstruction.

We still do not have ANY evidence of a crime committed by Trump, only innuendo generated out of anger and hard feelings.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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