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Greece

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Greece
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:27 am

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For a while now I have had the nagging feeling that something is off about the European vis-a-vis Greek position in those bailout talks. I had identified several points I do not agree with where my own government's position is concerned. Those points are fairly major - but I had still missed the real biggie.

And that I discovered only today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7EJsyy ... 7rTB_dINOk

I think he hits the nail on the head.

The Greeks were perfectly right to reject the bailout terms. And the Europeans - including the German government - should revise their position.

Are they able to though? Merkel did a 180° once. But can she again? It does not look hopeful atm.
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Re: Greece
Post by The E   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:51 am

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Merkel and Schäuble are far too locked into their course to change it now. Also, consider that Germany's largest tabloid has done such a good job of misrepresenting conditions in Greece that to back down now would not be sellable to the electorate.
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Re: Greece
Post by Imaginos1892   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:54 pm

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Misrepresented how? What has Greece done so far?

* Borrowed $350 billion
* Spent it
* Got nothing to show for it but a mountain of debt

Now they want to get out of paying their existing debts, plus borrow more money to dump down the same rat-hole. I sure wouldn't give it to 'em.
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If a business tries something and it doesn't work, they either stop doing it or they will go broke. If the government tries something that doesn't work, they just keep shoveling our money into it forever.
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Re: Greece
Post by Tenshinai   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:19 pm

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"banks in Europe", no banks in Europe and USA, more correctly.

Bruno Behrends wrote:For a while now I have had the nagging feeling that something is off about the European vis-a-vis Greek position in those bailout talks. I had identified several points I do not agree with where my own government's position is concerned. Those points are fairly major - but I had still missed the real biggie.

And that I discovered only today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7EJsyy ... 7rTB_dINOk

I think he hits the nail on the head.

The Greeks were perfectly right to reject the bailout terms. And the Europeans - including the German government - should revise their position.

Are they able to though? Merkel did a 180° once. But can she again? It does not look hopeful atm.



Overall, the IMF´s "solutions" just about never work, so keep going along with that is 99% likely just useless.
Getting into the euro on fake numbers ( knowingly accepted by the ECB ) was severely stupid.
Getting Greece into the euro at all was a BAD CHOICE (except for Germany(and less so for a few others)).
Accepting the elevated loan status that came from entering the euro was bloody stupid, just as bad as it was by the banks to raise their credit ratings for Greece based on nothing.

Saving the original creditors was bigtime stupid.


Basically, the Greeks have done the most important "clean-ups" at home, but they´re not going to get out of it by just keeping up the current measures so yeah they are certainly right to say no.
However, the should just leave the euro and have it done with ASAP. Every week they wait is just getting them further in trouble.

The euro pretty much killed their tourism industry, halved it in record time, but also made their exports uncompetitive and their imports expensive, and they have to import quite a fair amount of foodstuff, so no way of getting around that really.

They´re most likely screwed one way or another as long as they stay with the euro.

They still need to clean up their own economy for sure, far too much was allowed to slip by especially back in the bad old dictature days (67-74) as well as up to that point from the civil war after WWII, because Nato needed a cute little ally much more than they needed a financially solvent ally without a ruling junta skimming as much money as they could.

Hey, maybe they should demand that CIA pay their debts as restitution for their meddling in Greek politics, at least to some degree guilty of being the reason for the military junta takeover. :twisted:
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Re: Greece
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:58 am

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Bruno Behrends; Excellent link and thank you. What would happen if the Banks had to absorb/write off/call all their bad loans? Is it possible this might happen?

And if so, would that disaster cross the Atlantic Ocean and directly affect the USA? This is playing out like a bad drama story. Just me. HB of CJ
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Re: Greece
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:26 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Bruno Behrends; Excellent link and thank you. What would happen if the Banks had to absorb/write off/call all their bad loans? Is it possible this might happen?

And if so, would that disaster cross the Atlantic Ocean and directly affect the USA? This is playing out like a bad drama story. Just me. HB of CJ


The banks already got away with it.
And since US banks were involved, of course it would have affected USA as well.
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Re: Greece
Post by Bruno Behrends   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:59 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Bruno Behrends; Excellent link and thank you. What would happen if the Banks had to absorb/write off/call all their bad loans? Is it possible this might happen?

And if so, would that disaster cross the Atlantic Ocean and directly affect the USA? This is playing out like a bad drama story. Just me. HB of CJ


Thank you for your kind words :)

As to the what would have happened to the banks I admit I do not know. I am no expert on these matters.

All I can do is speculate: I suspect that at least some of the concerns about the banking sector collapsing were legitimate. Putting some public money on the line in an effort to prevent a collapse probably was a good idea. Or at least meant as such.

But I think they went overboard with it. Letting the banks - who created their own mess in the first place - off the hook completely does not set a good example - and unfairly burdens the taxpayers with costs for other peoples' (banks & investors) gains.

Anyway Greece - while it sure needs reforms which itself knows full well and is prepared to agree to btw - needs to get a debt relief. Denying it that because the governments let the banks out of their resposibility and put that on the taxpayers' backs instead is gross.
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Re: Greece
Post by SCC   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:57 am

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Some of the stuff I read says that Greece not only needs reforms, but also the right reforms and that part of the problem is that the previous ones the ECB has insisted upon have made the situation worse. Note that Iceland, which had debt problems and DIDN'T accept ECB bailouts is actually best off
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Re: Greece
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:08 am

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SCC wrote:Some of the stuff I read says that Greece not only needs reforms, but also the right reforms and that part of the problem is that the previous ones the ECB has insisted upon have made the situation worse. Note that Iceland, which had debt problems and DIDN'T accept ECB bailouts is actually best off


For Iceland though, it was waaay more absurd. There, the banks did fail, and then suddenly a bunch of people elsewhere demand that the nation takes over the debts just like that...
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Re: Greece
Post by SCC   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:28 am

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@Tenshinai, the thing is that Iceland is apparently in a better situation then Greece for not taking ECB money
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