Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.

Current controversy of South Carolina flying the Confederate battle flag. I would hope both sides on this issue take a deep breath and calm down. Extremist hate-mungers on both sides are wiping up violence don't listen to them. Each side needs to see the others point IE the Confederate flag represents a proud heritage to some, while it's the symbol of heinous oppression to others. KEEP CALM and walk a mile in the other guy's moccasins. Don't allow the exploiters of hate on both sides to win!

Black churches are burning in the South again, black militants urging attacks on whites just because of their race, the tinfoil hat crowd thinks the President of the United States is attempting to cause a Race war so he can become martial law dictator of the US. IMHO we all need to take a chill pill and calm the f**k down!

Poker

pokermind wrote:Current controversy of South Carolina flying the Confederate battle flag. I would hope both sides on this issue take a deep breath and calm down. Extremist hate-mungers on both sides are wiping up violence don't listen to them. Each side needs to see the others point IE the Confederate flag represents a proud heritage to some, while it's the symbol of heinous oppression to others.

While nobody should be whipping up violence, you realize that last statement is exactly like saying that the nazi swastika represents a proud heritage to some, while it's the symbol of heinous oppression to others?

Which is true, but doesn't mean we should be respecting both the former and the latter people to equal degree.

And spare me the "POE!"s, it's a completely apt comparison in this case. If anyone wants to try making any argument that the Confederacy wasn't basically America's version of the Nazis, go for it... they can start by explaining this away:

"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. " - Vice President of the Confederate States of America, Alexander Stephens

By all means, tell me how walking a mile in these guys moccasins is supposed to make us feel better about one of their battle flags being put on display by a state government in a place of honor. It's not like the Confederacy hijacked that flag from some pre-existing nobler purpose, is was created for these guys. Expressly. That up there, THAT is what that flag was made to represent. It wasn't about "states rights" except as they pertained to their claimed right for their states to continue slavery. It wasn't about economic disagreements except as they pertained to the Confederacy insisting on keeping their economies based on slavery.


The Nazi's had the Jews and the Confederacy had black people. The Nazi's marched their demonized minority off to concentration camps, the Confederacy enslaved them, raped and murdered them, and used them for forced labor. You can try nitpicking the moral differences between them and weighing them on the scales against each other if you really like to try to argue which was more despicable... but the bottom line is it's a national disgrace that the flying of that flag on the grounds of any government facility is still a serious topic of discussion.

Hmm,you can still buy Nazi flags on E-bay and Amazon, typical liberal mindset it's OK to discriminate against Jews, and Christians just not blacks or Muslims. OK we got a left-wing nut job some one from the Right care to hold forth. Bye the bye I live 20 miles from Hunt, a US Concentration camp from WW 2 where Japanese Americans were shipped while gone their property and business changed hands to good Democrats like the Browns, Hmm you can still buy an American Flag.

Back to the Tequila, Poker

pokermind wrote:Hmm,you can still buy Nazi flags on E-bay and Amazon,

Show me one flying on the grounds of a State Capital whose legislature passed a law specifically forbidding it's removal and we'll talk as if those two situations are equivalent.

Private companies can make whatever decisions on merhcandise stocking they like. That is VERY DIFFERENT from your own government going out of it's way to endorse something.

typical liberal mindset it's OK to discriminate against Jews, and Christians just not blacks or Muslims.

And where exactly did I or anyone else say the former was OK?

OK we got a left-wing nut job some one from the Right care to hold forth. Bye the bye I live 20 miles from Hunt, a US Concentration camp from WW 2 where Japanese Americans were shipped while gone their property and business changed hands to good Democrats like the Browns, Hmm you can still buy an American Flag.

What part of that battle flag NOT being hijacked from some pre-existing nobler purpose but being created SOLELY for the one despicable "we love slavery and want to keep it forever" faction in American history is not getting through to you?


The American flag legitimately represents far more than some of the isolated dishonorable and shameful incidents that occurred throughout the nation's history. The Confederate flag on the other had was purpose made for the Confederacy at the beginning of the war and was used ONLY by the Confederacy during the war.


It represents exactly one thing. The Confederacy and their cause. Anyone wants to claim they're waving it around to represent their proud heritage it's THAT HERITAGE they're saying they're proud of. Which as individuals they're still entirely entitled to do. It makes them pretty despicable (or, in the most generous interpretation I can come up with, horribly historically clueless) but they're allowed to be despicable or clueless.


But the government of your state putting its official stamp of approval on its display is a totally different animal. It is a disgrace.

Hmm, You still have no empathy with those who feel differently than you on an issue, Hmm, not being able to have empathy for other people is the definition of being a psychopath. Hmm,therefore you are a nutter. Hmm, the exact same thing that caused the Southerners to decide to withdraw from the union causing the civil war. Why? in this song, the Bonnie Blue Flag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PICQDvqb0vE

If you disagree with the legislature of South Carolina go there and vote the rascals out after you establish residence.

Back to the Tequila, Poker

I'm trying to decide if you actually think that cat is in some way a refutation of any of the points I have made...

pokermind wrote:Hmm, You still have no empathy with those who feel differently than you on an issue, Hmm, not being able to have empathy for other people is the definition of being a psychopath. Hmm,therefore you are a nutter.

Says the guy who has twice posted his funny little gif calling for "moderation" and opened his OP with a request that everyone not give in to the "extremist hate mongers" and "take a chill pill".

Am I the one who has first referred to you as a "nut job" and now a "psychopath" just for not agreeing on this? Hmmm? I've posted reasoned arguments supporting my position, you've posted... this lovely collection of ad hominem and drunk feline pics.


You know what would have made a nice accompaniment to the cat gifs and name calling? Anything resembling a rebuttal to any of the substance of the arguments I presented. Or is name calling (and accusing me of taking positions I never did like excusing discrimination against Christians and Jews) the only thing you can muster on this?

I can only shake my head, here I give you the first Confederate national song to look at, and you did not catch the salient point. There is a line in there "We fight for our property we earned by honest toil" Property was a polite word for slaves in the south at that time that would prove your argument that the war was about slavery. Many southern apologists refuse to acknowledge that the war was about slavery.

The law in South Carolina was a protest to integration passed in the middle of the Civil Rights struggle and IMHO should be repealed. I'm old enough to recall the Whites only sings in the south and thinking how stupid and unfair it was.

So why I could not contradict your points, I agreed with them. Hence cute kitty. OK it's OK for gays to sue a bakery for not making a gay wedding cake due to the owner's beliefs, but it's not OK to sue Wallmart for refusing to make a cake with the Confederate flag so justify that contradiction to me. Both after all are just business decisions. Hmmm, a hint discrimination is discrimination both are justifiable law suits.

I still maintain that love of heritage and hate of injustice the flag represents are both valid for the individuals holding them. Who am I or you for that matter to judge the more valid view.

Poker

pokermind wrote:I can only shake my head, here I give you the first Confederate national song to look at, and you did not catch the salient point. There is a line in there "We fight for our property we earned by honest toil" Property was a polite word for slaves in the south at that time that would prove your argument that the war was about slavery. Many southern apologists refuse to acknowledge that the war was about slavery.

The law in South Carolina was a protest to integration passed in the middle of the Civil Rights struggle and IMHO should be repealed. I'm old enough to recall the Whites only sings in the south and thinking how stupid and unfair it was.

So why I could not contradict your points, I agreed with them. Hence cute kitty.

Alright, the "nutjob" and "psychopath" bits probably threw me off your attempt to agree with me...

OK it's OK for gays to sue a bakery for not making a gay wedding cake due to the owner's beliefs, but it's not OK to sue Wallmart for refusing to make a cake with the Confederate flag so justify that contradiction to me.

Not going to try, both are equivalent situations. As I said, private business =/= your government.

I still maintain that love of heritage and hate of injustice the flag represents are both valid for the individuals holding them. Who am I or you for that matter to judge the more valid view.

If we can't judge valid world views than all political ethical and moral debate kind of stops. Everyone in the world is equally right, everyone do whatever you want... 'cause who are we to judge?


The fact still remains that the specific "heritage" we are talking about with that flag is the one about starting a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the cause of demanding to continue being able to own people as property. that is the one and only event for which that flag was crafted. Which means I have to repeat that the most generous possible judgement I can give to anyone who uses that flag as a symbol of their proud heritage is hopelessly horrendously clueless about their own history. And that's really needing to extend some pretty impressive benefits of the doubt to get that far instead of using significantly more derogatory language.

gcomeau; I believe the North attacked the South. The South just wanted to go its own way. I also believe comparing the Nazis with Jews and the Confederacy with Blacks is also rather blunt and not accurate. The South did not murder Blacks.

The Northern States also had slavery. The South probably took better care of their slaves than the North did with the cheap throw a way whites working in the northern company towns. The slaves did have better medical care. The North gave none.

The average slave in 1860 cost over $20,000 by todays value. Very spendy. Only one in five Southerners even owned slaves. The slaves life style was very harsh indeed. They were slaves. But there are comparisions to living conditions of the Northern poor whites.

We were taught, (Deep South) that it was economic/political conditions that led to the War Of Northern Agression. Yes, slavery did enter into it. Compare such slave conditions to that of the fresh off the boat European white immigrant arriving then.

All of this happened a long time ago. What I find scary is the power block or power base that has the ability to ignite such media conditions and supercharge perhaps non prior existing conditions. Now who would be doing that? And for what purpose?

Respectfully. HB of CJ (Oldest Southern Coot)

HB of CJ wrote:gcomeau; I believe the North attacked the South. The South just wanted to go its own way. I also believe comparing the Nazis with Jews and the Confederacy with Blacks is also rather blunt and not accurate. The South did not murder Blacks.

Before I continue addressing the rest of this post... are you trying to say blacks weren't *killed*... or that it was pretty much never murder because it was damn near impossible for a white person to ever be charged with murder for killing a slave in the slaveholding states?