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MH17

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MH17
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:44 am

Daryl
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Commiserations to all those who lost loved ones in this international crime. I can't imagine how you are feeling and coping with the loss, and the ongoing desecration.

Suggestion to the world leaders. Put Putin on the spot by asking if he has ownership of the thugs at the site. If the answer is yes demand he calls them off. If the answer is no then say "You won't mind if we send a few SAS, SBS and Seals over to have a brief chat with them then?"
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Re: MH17
Post by pokermind   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:57 am

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It hit close to our Honor Harrington group, Genkkis, he's the French Honor Harrington books Cover artist, he was returning home from a vacation to Australia and Tasmania in the plane just behind the one that was shot down, https://www.facebook.com/genkkis?fref=tl_fr_box

Image Genkis Genkkis wrote:
Ca fait toujours bizarre de se dire que l'avion abattu/ecrasé en ukraine était celui juste avant le mien... Malaysia airlines a eu la bonne idée de modifier la route de mon vol et des suivants... Je dois avoir une bonne étoile...

Well, that's strange to know that the plane destroyed/crashed in Ukraine was just before my own flight. Malaysia airlines had a really good idea and decided to modify the way of my flight and the others... I must be lucky...


Why in God's name are they flying over a country in the midst of a Civil War?

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"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: MH17
Post by turol   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:10 am

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pokermind wrote:Why in God's name are they flying over a country in the midst of a Civil War?


Because man-portable SAMs can't hit airplanes that high and no-one believed Putin would be stupid enough to give those clowns all-up SAMs.
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Re: MH17
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:16 pm

namelessfly

turol wrote:
pokermind wrote:Why in God's name are they flying over a country in the midst of a Civil War?


Because man-portable SAMs can't hit airplanes that high and no-one believed Putin would be stupid enough to give those clowns all-up SAMs.



Putin was stupid enough to give full capability SAMs to the separatists because the Ukrainian Government was stupid enough to use fighter bombers and troop transports in it's military campaign against the seperatists.

More importantly, there is a civil war being waged in Ukraine because President Obama was stupid enough to dispatch Victoria Nuland and associated CIA and DoS operative to Ukraine to incite a coup against Ukraine's Constitutionally electected government to avert Ukraine forming somewhat closer economic and political ties with Russia so that Ukraine could be brought into the European Union and Nato. Some of you may recall that when the Berlin wall came down, the risk of Russia using nukes to secure it's empire was averted by making promises to Russia that NATO would not be expanded into former USSR territory.

The US and Nato have violated ALL of the promises that were made to Russia regarding respect for Russian interests. These violations have harmed Russia economically and politically. The most profound threat to Russia's legitimate interests has been the destabilization of former Soviet Republics which have a very large population of ethnic Russians or Slavic peoples. We pat ourselves on the back for waging war against the Serbians in the former Yugoslavia to prevent ethnic cleansing while ignoring the fact that NATO airpower enabled the ethnic cleansing of the Serbians by the Bosnians. It should surprise no one that Putin has had enough of this bovine scatology and is retaliating.

Feel free to send over your SAS ( who are already there.). Don't be surprised if Putin responds by sending back some SS-18s.
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Re: MH17
Post by Arol   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:25 pm

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Posts: 419
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namelessfly wrote:[
Putin was stupid enough to give full capability SAMs to the separatists because the Ukrainian Government was stupid enough to use fighter bombers and troop transports in it's military campaign against the seperatists.

More importantly, there is a civil war being waged in Ukraine because President Obama was stupid enough to dispatch Victoria Nuland and associated CIA and DoS operative to Ukraine to incite a coup against Ukraine's Constitutionally electected government to avert Ukraine forming somewhat closer economic and political ties with Russia so that Ukraine could be brought into the European Union and Nato. Some of you may recall that when the Berlin wall came down, the risk of Russia using nukes to secure it's empire was averted by making promises to Russia that NATO would not be expanded into former USSR territory.

The US and Nato have violated ALL of the promises that were made to Russia regarding respect for Russian interests. These violations have harmed Russia economically and politically. The most profound threat to Russia's legitimate interests has been the destabilization of former Soviet Republics which have a very large population of ethnic Russians or Slavic peoples. We pat ourselves on the back for waging war against the Serbians in the former Yugoslavia to prevent ethnic cleansing while ignoring the fact that NATO airpower enabled the ethnic cleansing of the Serbians by the Bosnians. It should surprise no one that Putin has had enough of this bovine scatology and is retaliating.

Feel free to send over your SAS ( who are already there.). Don't be surprised if Putin responds by sending back some SS-18s.


That Russia since the implosion of the USSR has been engaged in land grabs is not news.
Moldova has a breakaway republic Transnistria, as has Georgia with South Ossetia. Both breakaway republics dominated by Russian separatists.
In the Crimea, Putin’s Russia went hole hog and simply annexed the entire area.
- Sent in agitators’, have them declare independence and call for a ”fair plebiscite” to join Russia, win with over a 90% majority, and wupsi Russia has a new province!
In the eastern Ukraine, the same scenario is playing out with Russian separatists claiming independence and calling for a return to the motherland.
In 2009 Russia and NATO signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act a lengthy document wherein also the following is agreed to:

…refrain from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act” and the “respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples’ right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents.”

That Putin’s Russia is in violation of a signed agreement not yet 5 years old, should be clear to anyone watching the what is being played out in the Ukraine.
The shooting down of a airliner with over 300 civilians onboard by a Russian missile system is just the latest in along line of Russian provocations.
Putin’s bland statement, that since it occurred over Ukrainian territory then it’s the Ukrainians responsibility, staggers belief.
- Supply the pro-Russian insurgents with Buk multi vehicle missile systems, (together with the ”civilian” technicians to man them, shoot down a civilian airliner, then disclaim all responsibility!!!
Man that cold!!!
Got’ a say I’m glad that our neighbors in the Baltic states; Estonia, Latvia and  Lithuania with their large Russian minorities, managed to get in under NATO’s an the EU’s umbrella.
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Re: MH17
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:16 pm

namelessfly

You make some valid points but there are no white hats in this conflict.

Rule number one of conflict:

Before getting into a pissing match with someone, be ceetain that you have the longest sight radius.

Given a pissing match between Putin and Obama, my money is on Putin.



Arol wrote:
namelessfly wrote:[
Putin was stupid enough to give full capability SAMs to the separatists because the Ukrainian Government was stupid enough to use fighter bombers and troop transports in it's military campaign against the seperatists.

More importantly, there is a civil war being waged in Ukraine because President Obama was stupid enough to dispatch Victoria Nuland and associated CIA and DoS operative to Ukraine to incite a coup against Ukraine's Constitutionally electected government to avert Ukraine forming somewhat closer economic and political ties with Russia so that Ukraine could be brought into the European Union and Nato. Some of you may recall that when the Berlin wall came down, the risk of Russia using nukes to secure it's empire was averted by making promises to Russia that NATO would not be expanded into former USSR territory.

The US and Nato have violated ALL of the promises that were made to Russia regarding respect for Russian interests. These violations have harmed Russia economically and politically. The most profound threat to Russia's legitimate interests has been the destabilization of former Soviet Republics which have a very large population of ethnic Russians or Slavic peoples. We pat ourselves on the back for waging war against the Serbians in the former Yugoslavia to prevent ethnic cleansing while ignoring the fact that NATO airpower enabled the ethnic cleansing of the Serbians by the Bosnians. It should surprise no one that Putin has had enough of this bovine scatology and is retaliating.

Feel free to send over your SAS ( who are already there.). Don't be surprised if Putin responds by sending back some SS-18s.


That Russia since the implosion of the USSR has been engaged in land grabs is not news.
Moldova has a breakaway republic Transnistria, as has Georgia with South Ossetia. Both breakaway republics dominated by Russian separatists.
In the Crimea, Putin’s Russia went hole hog and simply annexed the entire area.
- Sent in agitators’, have them declare independence and call for a ”fair plebiscite” to join Russia, win with over a 90% majority, and wupsi Russia has a new province!
In the eastern Ukraine, the same scenario is playing out with Russian separatists claiming independence and calling for a return to the motherland.
In 2009 Russia and NATO signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act a lengthy document wherein also the following is agreed to:

…refrain from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act” and the “respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples’ right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents.”

That Putin’s Russia is in violation of a signed agreement not yet 5 years old, should be clear to anyone watching the what is being played out in the Ukraine.
The shooting down of a airliner with over 300 civilians onboard by a Russian missile system is just the latest in along line of Russian provocations.
Putin’s bland statement, that since it occurred over Ukrainian territory then it’s the Ukrainians responsibility, staggers belief.
- Supply the pro-Russian insurgents with Buk multi vehicle missile systems, (together with the ”civilian” technicians to man them, shoot down a civilian airliner, then disclaim all responsibility!!!
Man that cold!!!
Got’ a say I’m glad that our neighbors in the Baltic states; Estonia, Latvia and  Lithuania with their large Russian minorities, managed to get in under NATO’s an the EU’s umbrella.
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Re: MH17
Post by Arol   » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:14 pm

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Posts: 419
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 pm
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namelessfly wrote:Rule number one of conflict:

Before getting into a pissing match with someone, be ceetain that you have the longest sight radius.

Given a pissing match between Putin and Obama, my money is on Putin.

They can both go piss up a rope for all I care, it's just that living in Europe, I'm more then anxious that I'll end up soaked.

namelessfly wrote:You make some valid points but there are no white hats in this conflict.

Never are, just shades of grey!
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Re: MH17
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:29 am

namelessfly

The US needs to consider it's long term strategic interests rather than enshrine historical alliances.

Russia is no longer the USSR.
Russia is no longer communist.
Russia no longer has a totalitarian political ideology and economic system that it wishes to impose on the rest of the world.
Russia's economy is no longer large enough to allow it to sustain a military capable of rivaling the US.

The EU has an aggregate economy comparable to the US economy.
The EU has a host of political and economic ideologies that it wishes to impose on the rest of the world, or at least the US. The most pernicious of these ideologies is global warming theology which is intended to devastate the US economy.

The biggest threat facing the US is radical Islam.
Russia supports some totalitarian, radical Islamic states to undermine US power and influence.
Russia is also smart enough to perceive that Islamic radicalism is a threat to Russia.
The EU seeks to appease Islamic radicalism and eagerely embraces immigrants from radical, Islamic states who are more interested in imposing Islam on Europe than assimilating. The recent riots in France and the UK to protest the Israeli punitive incursion into Gaza illustrates this.

It is in the interest of the US to limit rather than nurture the economic and potential military power of the EU because the EU is an ally of radical Islam.

It is in the interest of the US to nurture the economic and military power of Russia to counterbalance the EU, as an ally against radical Islam, and to counterbalance the power of China.

I am quite content to see Russian separatists shoot down entire squadrons of airliners full of
Europeans if it will advance the long term strategic interests of the US.

Arol wrote:
namelessfly wrote:Rule number one of conflict:

Before getting into a pissing match with someone, be ceetain that you have the longest sight radius.

Given a pissing match between Putin and Obama, my money is on Putin.

They can both go piss up a rope for all I care, it's just that living in Europe, I'm more then anxious that I'll end up soaked.

namelessfly wrote:You make some valid points but there are no white hats in this conflict.

Never are, just shades of grey!
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Re: MH17
Post by The E   » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:14 am

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Posts: 2683
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namelessfly wrote:The EU has an aggregate economy comparable to the US economy.
The EU has a host of political and economic ideologies that it wishes to impose on the rest of the world, or at least the US. The most pernicious of these ideologies is global warming theology which is intended to devastate the US economy.

[...]

The EU seeks to appease Islamic radicalism and eagerely embraces immigrants from radical, Islamic states who are more interested in imposing Islam on Europe than assimilating. The recent riots in France and the UK to protest the Israeli punitive incursion into Gaza illustrates this.


Yes, the pure nerve of these europeans to not share (conservative) american opinions on some topics! It's almost like they aren't convinced of the completely rational and totally non-ideological arguments put forth by the american right.

I am quite content to see Russian separatists shoot down entire squadrons of airliners full of Europeans if it will advance the long term strategic interests of the US.


I was trying to come up with a way for your opinions to be more disgusting, but I just can't top that. Congratulations, namelessfly. America über alles, über alles in der Welt!
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Re: MH17
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:39 am

namelessfly

I would hope that the Russian separatists would develop a preference for shooting down airliners manufactured by Airbus rather than Boeing just to save Boeing from the civil liability.

The E wrote:
namelessfly wrote:The EU has an aggregate economy comparable to the US economy.
The EU has a host of political and economic ideologies that it wishes to impose on the rest of the world, or at least the US. The most pernicious of these ideologies is global warming theology which is intended to devastate the US economy.

[...]

The EU seeks to appease Islamic radicalism and eagerely embraces immigrants from radical, Islamic states who are more interested in imposing Islam on Europe than assimilating. The recent riots in France and the UK to protest the Israeli punitive incursion into Gaza illustrates this.


Yes, the pure nerve of these europeans to not share (conservative) american opinions on some topics! It's almost like they aren't convinced of the completely rational and totally non-ideological arguments put forth by the american right.

I am quite content to see Russian separatists shoot down entire squadrons of airliners full of Europeans if it will advance the long term strategic interests of the US.


I was trying to come up with a way for your opinions to be more disgusting, but I just can't top that. Congratulations, namelessfly. America über alles, über alles in der Welt!
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