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Ukraine

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Ukraine
Post by smr   » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:57 am

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The reason I care about this story is that my family came from the Ukraine in 1903 or 1908. During WW2 the family that remained in the Ukraine were wiped out by the Germans and the Russians. As result, I say fight for what is right and setup a government that is for the people. As to the EU, Russia, USA, and other governments that wish to project their political agenda, I say hands off! Provide economic and humanitarian assistance to the winners. None of these governments have a white hat concerning these problems. Some of these difficulties are being orchestrated for political agendas that are not in the best interests of Ukraine or other governments. Just my 2 cents were of rhetoric towards the cause of the Ukrainian people and freedom.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:46 am

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I would agree to keep hands off. Let people figure out there own stuff. As long as they are keeping it to themselves. Which Ukraine is! But not sure it is realistic.

The only thing that happens when outside forces get involved is that the suffering of the locals gets worse. In a general sense. Artificially influencing winners and losers. Which leads to a not popularly supported government coming into power. (note I am saying popularly supported vice democratic) PBS did a couple of segments on the results that were interesting.

Results of the Arab spring show that it was not necessarily a good thing for those outside influence's as well.

T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:30 pm

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I agree.

We have no understanding.

We also have no prospect of power projection.

It will end with Russia invading then maybe another genocide.

The world will do-nothing.

Just think of it as evolution in action?
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:50 am

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Before everyoe accepts the liberation paradigm as accurate, check out the history of the freed "political prisoner" wo is favored to be the new prime minister.

http://www.tymoshenkocase.com/docs-list/

We should be asking ourselves if Obama's CIA and State department incited, organized, trained and supplied this coup just as they did in Egypt and Libya.

Vladimir putin and the Russain supported Ukrainians are no paragons of liberty, but the opposition seems to be corrupt.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by smr   » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:43 am

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I have to agree that it's a little naive but I see so many outside hands trying to stir the pot.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:00 am

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smr wrote:I have to agree that it's a little naive but I see so many outside hands trying to stir the pot.


Well from what little I have seen from various sources. Outside influences from the EU and Russia were what seemed to trigger it.

Also surprise, surprise, surprise nobody in a position of governmental power is wearing a "white" hat. Nameless pointed out the problem of the old/new people. The one in power when it started seemed like a "typical" banana republic leader.

I wish them the best but they have a long row to hoe. Watching what is happening there scary. Hard to see it coming out well in the end. Or at least for a few generations.

A lot of things go into the above not going to detail.

T2M

Edit: Just looked at BBC site. First step of a new government arrest/or attempt arrest the outgoing leader hard to have a smooth transition of power in that environment. Or stop a leader from taking advantage of his position.
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:50 pm

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It is Libya all over again.

The European Union (or certain member nations) were pissed off because Daffy Gadaffy granted lucrative oil contracts to the Chinese rather than BP and Schluberge, so they incited, funded and armed a rebelion. When the dictator resisted, the EU deanded that the US intervene to impose a No Fly zone. This required sending in two carrier battle groups supported by Ohio class cruise missile subs to take down the air defenses. Our Eropean "allies" then started flying close air support for the rebels. Daffy Gadaffy ends up getting sodomized with a bayonet on video which pleases the EU but Libya remains so chaotic that oil production is erratic at best.

The EU is now pissed off because natural gas prices are to high when they want to phase out their nuke plants. The forment a rebellion with the expectation of replacing one kleptocrat with an even worse kleptocrat. This is not Libya. This is Russia's back yard. If we are lucky, Putin will be content to just bitchslap Obama into submission then bend him over the Constitution desk only to discover that Obama enjoys it.





thinkstoomuch wrote:
smr wrote:I have to agree that it's a little naive but I see so many outside hands trying to stir the pot.


Well from what little I have seen from various sources. Outside influences from the EU and Russia were what seemed to trigger it.

Also surprise, surprise, surprise nobody in a position of governmental power is wearing a "white" hat. Nameless pointed out the problem of the old/new people. The one in power when it started seemed like a "typical" banana republic leader.

I wish them the best but they have a long row to hoe. Watching what is happening there scary. Hard to see it coming out well in the end. Or at least for a few generations.

A lot of things go into the above not going to detail.

T2M

Edit: Just looked at BBC site. First step of a new government arrest/or attempt arrest the outgoing leader hard to have a smooth transition of power in that environment. Or stop a leader from taking advantage of his position.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by biochem   » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:35 am

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It's another one of these situations where all the options are bad and we just have to hope for the least bad option.
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Re: Ukraine
Post by biochem   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:19 pm

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I wonder what Putin will try next? Will he try hardball immediately or will he wait until the heat has died down and attempt a behind the scenes carrot/stick approach?
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Re: Ukraine
Post by namelessfly   » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:35 pm

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biochem wrote:I wonder what Putin will try next? Will he try hardball immediately or will he wait until the heat has died down and attempt a behind the scenes carrot/stick approach?



Putin just mobilized 150,000 troops for a "trainig exercise."

The Soviet Black Sea Fleet was partioned between Russia, Ukraine and Georgia. Not much beyond subs and frigates. However; land based air power is very significant. I would be dismayed if Obamawasstupid enough tosendacarrier battle group into that inland sea.
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