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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Fri May 01, 2020 2:17 am

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In all honesty Daryl I don't think it would be. It would be higher, but not to that degree.

There's a massive cultural difference. An awakening that the USA refuses to go through.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri May 01, 2020 1:45 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:When one very destictive ethnic group has a Homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the population, you need to examine what is different about that segment of the population. Guns are not the issue because Blacks are less likely to own guns and tend to own fewer guns. One contributing factor is that African Americans often blame their own behavioral problems on racism.

If you want to experience racism, take a walk through certain neighborhoods that are predominantly African-American. They will not give a damn that you are Eurotrash rather than white American. Your probability of survival will not be good.

There is one very distinctive *group* of people that predominately affect homicide statistics, economically disenfranchised people. People who persist in using ethnicity as an explanation for the statistics are indirectly perpetuating the disenfranchisement.


The reality is that crimnologists have factored in economics. African Americans have far higher homicide rates as any other group of similar economic circumstances. One major factor that effects Homicide rates for blacks is how large a minority or majority they are in their community.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri May 01, 2020 1:59 pm

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Daryl wrote:The real point I was trying to make is that the most efficient individual way for a person to kill another person is with a gun. That's why soldiers, police and some criminals use them.
The Australian overall murder statistics are still markedly less than those in the USA. If we had the same instant access to guns as you do, the overall rate would be much closer again, as more murderous impulses would have been successfully acted upon.
Compounding this is something that you have mentioned previously. Our police are generally on top of serious crime. If we read a headline saying that someone somewhere in the country has been shot dead, there is a likelihood that tomorrow's headline will be "Shooter caught, in custody."



You are really getting the point now!

US police are generally much less adept at solving homicides and other crimes as police in most other countries. This is not universal within the US. Some communities have far more effective police than others. The worst tend to be communities that are predominantly African American. Interestingly; clearance rates for homicides of white victims are as low as black victims, so it isn't racism by police. It is that "cultural shift" that hasn't occurred.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by n7axw   » Fri May 01, 2020 5:02 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:

The reality is that crimnologists have factored in economics. African Americans have far higher homicide rates as any other group of similar economic circumstances. One major factor that effects Homicide rates for blacks is how large a minority or majority they are in their community.


I'd need credible citation for this one.

Joat is right. But there is more to the story than economics. Along with economic deprivation goes cultural break down. They go together hand and glove for communities, black and white. It is like a never ending circle one feeding the other.

We can start with either side of the equation. All too many inner city kids have never had a male role model. Dad disappeared before they were born. Dad did that because he probably never knew his dad either. So he thinks that his behavior is normal. So mom, being the victim of the snipe hunting expedition is left holding the bag. She does that because that is what happened to her mom. So she thinks it's normal too. So mom goes to work to try to feed and shelter her children which takes two and sometimes three jobs to do.

And the kids? They are fed into schools with crammed classrooms, all too few textbooks and teachers who although are well meaning aren't all that well educated themselves, let alone qualified to teach. They might last in such a school for a while. In fact there are some to the amazement of observers manage to graduate and go on to college. Often in order to survive in a good college, they must do remedial ed in order to compete with whites who have had the benefit of good schools. But all too often these kids end up on the streets where they join gangs to survive. And, of course, with that comes alcohol, drugs, violence and crime which in turn gets passed to the next generation.

There are lots of success stories. When that happens it's because there is some good male mentoring going on. Both boys and girls need reliable men in their lives. For most of us that happens with good families that we take for granted. Or if we lack that, good teachers, or as in my own case both. l've always had lots of good mentors around. And hopefully I have been a mentor to the kids I have been around.

Does this have anything to do with being black? No. Of course not. Black kids are as inherently bright as anyone else. In fact, you can find the same basic cycle on native American reservations. The Lakota Sioux people on the Pine Ridge reservation are amongst the poorest in America. Or poor white communities in places like West Virginia. The point is that anyplace you have economic impoverishment and broken culture, this is what you get.

What being black does get you, however, is a horrible handicap due to both personal and structural racism. It's as though when the race starts the white and other advantaged children are a quarter mile down the track before you are even allowed to step up to the starting post. Racism is basicly stereotyping. If a you are black and a cop sees you, he assumes you are up to no good. If you are black and you apply for a job, your prospective employer is likely to assume you can't do the job no matter how good your credentials might be. If you apply for college, admissions people will wonder if you can keep up.

Stereotyping (ala racism) is lazy and unfortunately all too many people are lazy. And if you do that, your victims pay the price for your lack of character.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Joat42   » Fri May 01, 2020 5:10 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:When one very destictive ethnic group has a Homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the population, you need to examine what is different about that segment of the population. Guns are not the issue because Blacks are less likely to own guns and tend to own fewer guns. One contributing factor is that African Americans often blame their own behavioral problems on racism.

If you want to experience racism, take a walk through certain neighborhoods that are predominantly African-American. They will not give a damn that you are Eurotrash rather than white American. Your probability of survival will not be good.

There is one very distinctive *group* of people that predominately affect homicide statistics, economically disenfranchised people. People who persist in using ethnicity as an explanation for the statistics are indirectly perpetuating the disenfranchisement.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The reality is that crimnologists have factored in economics. African Americans have far higher homicide rates as any other group of similar economic circumstances. One major factor that effects Homicide rates for blacks is how large a minority or majority they are in their community.


Article by Krivko & Peterson wrote:Extremely Disadvantaged Neighborhoods
and Urban Crime

Abstract
Drawing on Wilson (1987), this article assesses two hypotheses concerning the relationship between neighborhood disadvantage and crime: (1) extremely disadvantaged neighborhoods have unusually high rates of crime; and (2) local structural disadvantage is equally important in influencing crime in black and white neighborhoods. Hence, racial differences in structural disadvantage account for black-white differences in crime across communities. To test these hypotheses, we examine 1990 census and crime data for local areas in the city of Columbus, Ohio. The analysis lends substantial support for both arguments, particularly for the influence of structural disadvantage on violent crime.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by doug941   » Fri May 01, 2020 6:19 pm

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n7axw wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:

The reality is that crimnologists have factored in economics. African Americans have far higher homicide rates as any other group of similar economic circumstances. One major factor that effects Homicide rates for blacks is how large a minority or majority they are in their community.


I'd need credible citation for this one.

Joat is right. But there is more to the story than economics. Along with economic deprivation goes cultural break down. They go together hand and glove for communities, black and white. It is like a never ending circle one feeding the other.

We can start with either side of the equation. All too many inner city kids have never had a male role model. Dad disappeared before they were born. Dad did that because he probably never knew his dad either. So he thinks that his behavior is normal. So mom, being the victim of the snipe hunting expedition is left holding the bag. She does that because that is what happened to her mom. So she thinks it's normal too. So mom goes to work to try to feed and shelter her children which takes two and sometimes three jobs to do.

And the kids? They are fed into schools with crammed classrooms, all too few textbooks and teachers who although are well meaning aren't all that well educated themselves, let alone qualified to teach. They might last in such a school for a while. In fact there are some to the amazement of observers manage to graduate and go on to college. Often in order to survive in a good college, they must do remedial ed in order to compete with whites who have had the benefit of good schools. But all too often these kids end up on the streets where they join gangs to survive. And, of course, with that comes alcohol, drugs, violence and crime which in turn gets passed to the next generation.

There are lots of success stories. When that happens it's because there is some good male mentoring going on. Both boys and girls need reliable men in their lives. For most of us that happens with good families that we take for granted. Or if we lack that, good teachers, or as in my own case both. l've always had lots of good mentors around. And hopefully I have been a mentor to the kids I have been around.

Does this have anything to do with being black? No. Of course not. Black kids are as inherently bright as anyone else. In fact, you can find the same basic cycle on native American reservations. The Lakota Sioux people on the Pine Ridge reservation are amongst the poorest in America. Or poor white communities in places like West Virginia. The point is that anyplace you have economic impoverishment and broken culture, this is what you get.

What being black does get you, however, is a horrible handicap due to both personal and structural racism. It's as though when the race starts the white and other advantaged children are a quarter mile down the track before you are even allowed to step up to the starting post. Racism is basicly stereotyping. If a you are black and a cop sees you, he assumes you are up to no good. If you are black and you apply for a job, your prospective employer is likely to assume you can't do the job no matter how good your credentials might be. If you apply for college, admissions people will wonder if you can keep up.

Stereotyping (ala racism) is lazy and unfortunately all too many people are lazy. And if you do that, your victims pay the price for your lack of character.

Don

-


Many of your points were distressingly correct, but you missed one. There are all too many members of the Black community who grasp at any method try to lift themselves out of their circumstances, but get grief from their peers of trying to emulate "Whitie." Thankfully, this is not nearly as bad of a problem as it was in the 1960s and 70s, but it still happens.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri May 01, 2020 7:50 pm

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I actually believe that while black people back in the 1950s, 1960s and even the 1970s had to contend with far more overt and systematic racism, they conducted themselves in a far more responsible manner that allowed many to succeed anyway. (Watch the movie HIDDEN FIGURES. I actually have read a paper on celestial mechanics that was written by the mathematicion.). Now that the worst of the racism has been resolved, many black people are rejecting education and family. They also confuse criminal justice with racism.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Joat42   » Fri May 01, 2020 8:21 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I actually believe that while black people back in the 1950s, 1960s and even the 1970s had to contend with far more overt and systematic racism, they conducted themselves in a far more responsible manner that allowed many to succeed anyway. (Watch the movie HIDDEN FIGURES. I actually have read a paper on celestial mechanics that was written by the mathematicion.). Now that the worst of the racism has been resolved, many black people are rejecting education and family. They also confuse criminal justice with racism.

You don't really think through things, do you? Perhaps just ask yourself why black people tended to be "be more responsible" in 50's, 60's and 70's. I would use the word "cautious" though, especially considering what black people was put through for hundreds of years in the US.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by n7axw   » Fri May 01, 2020 9:34 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I actually believe that while black people back in the 1950s, 1960s and even the 1970s had to contend with far more overt and systematic racism, they conducted themselves in a far more responsible manner that allowed many to succeed anyway. (Watch the movie HIDDEN FIGURES. I actually have read a paper on celestial mechanics that was written by the mathematicion.). Now that the worst of the racism has been resolved, many black people are rejecting education and family. They also confuse criminal justice with racism.


Things have improved, but not nearly enough.

One thing that happened is that once they were able to do so many of the modestly well off middle class blacks fled the inner city for the suburbs, leaving the inner city
Black community leaderless.

As for the bit about many blacks rejecting family and education, this is what I was referring to when in my previous post in describing cultural breakdown. All too many have never experienced either family or education the way we have. The dads disappeared. In a properly functioning family, it's dad's role to instill discipline and self control and introduce his children to the world.

By nature all of us are self indulgent. We have to learn those things as we mature. Sometimes it happens the hard way. What I didn't learn by watching dad, I learned by getting my arse kicked. I eventually figured out that it caused a whole lot less fracas to learn the lesson the easy way.

So who teaches those lessons if there is no dad around? That is where good strong male mentoring with loads of love has to come in. Without that...《shrug》 :(

Sometimes criminal justice is racist when it is not evenly applied. There is nothing that depresses me more than the number of unarmed black men who have been shot by cops when had the cops investigated the matter more closely, it wouldn't have been necessary.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by n7axw   » Fri May 01, 2020 9:47 pm

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doug941 wrote:
Many of your points were distressingly correct, but you missed one. There are all too many members of the Black community who grasp at any method try to lift themselves out of their circumstances, but get grief from their peers of trying to emulate "Whitie." Thankfully, this is not nearly as bad of a problem as it was in the 1960s and 70s, but it still happens.


That is always sad. The reason for it is that the people giving the grief perceive the ones trying to break out of the circle as breaking what I will call tribal unity. That is a form of scapegoating.

The same thing happens on the reservation. Only there the term is "apple" --- red on the outside, white on the inside.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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