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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:00 am

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I wasn't even aware of this up to now. Hardly a national panic matter. My old Lee Enfield 303 bolt action has a 10 round magazine, and that, being the fastest bolt action ever, could nearly equal that rate of fire, and it's legal. It also fires military ammunition that is of similar power to this gun with its 308 or 7.62 NATO ammo.
Over time I've owned bolt action 30-06 and 8 mm Mauser rifles that have more powerful ammo. All under our current rules. We can buy bigger stuff like Weatherby as well.
Reading the article it seemed to be written by a particularly emotional and dumb 15 year old. Full of emotive and inaccurate language. Lots of them and us rubbish about people trying to stop gun owners, just not true.



TFLYTSNBN wrote:I see the Aussies are shiting their pants over a new gun.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/verne ... aking-out/
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:44 am

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Senior Chief wrote:
Please note, no modern day assault rifle was involved...



Strangely there don't seem to be many such events nowadays even in the US.

Is it because the sale of dynamite is 'shock horror' restricted and controlled??
:shock: :o :shock:

I'm amazed that the these restictions on your liberty are allowed - surely any well run militia needs that sort of stuff???
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:02 pm

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noblehunter wrote:I'm not sure "someone devotes the last year of his life to planning and carrying out a mass murder" is a good argument against gun control. If he'd had an assault rifle, he could have killed that many people without months of preparation.



Why would Andrew Kehoe have required months of preparation?
Explosives were easy to obtain at many local hardware stores. Many farmers who needed to clear former forest land would by dynamite by the wagon load. Inspite of the easy availablility of explosives, they were used in very few homicides.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by noblehunter   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:10 pm

noblehunter
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Why would Andrew Kehoe have required months of preparation?
Explosives were easy to obtain at many local hardware stores. Many farmers who needed to clear former forest land would by dynamite by the wagon load. Inspite of the easy availablility of explosives, they were used in very few homicides.


He apparently needed months given the apparent timeline.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:56 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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noblehunter wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Why would Andrew Kehoe have required months of preparation?
Explosives were easy to obtain at many local hardware stores. Many farmers who needed to clear former forest land would by dynamite by the wagon load. Inspite of the easy availablility of explosives, they were used in very few homicides.


He apparently needed months given the apparent timeline.



May be he needed months to make up his mind but actual process would take just a few hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrotol
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by edgeworthy   » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:35 pm

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Daryl wrote:I wasn't even aware of this up to now. Hardly a national panic matter. My old Lee Enfield 303 bolt action has a 10 round magazine, and that, being the fastest bolt action ever, could nearly equal that rate of fire, and it's legal. It also fires military ammunition that is of similar power to this gun with its 308 or 7.62 NATO ammo.
Over time I've owned bolt action 30-06 and 8 mm Mauser rifles that have more powerful ammo. All under our current rules. We can buy bigger stuff like Weatherby as well.
Reading the article it seemed to be written by a particularly emotional and dumb 15 year old. Full of emotive and inaccurate language. Lots of them and us rubbish about people trying to stop gun owners, just not true.



TFLYTSNBN wrote:I see the Aussies are shiting their pants over a new gun.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/verne ... aking-out/

The record for a SMLE is 38 aimed shots in a minute, not just fired but hitting a 12 inch target at 300 yards.
The British Army expected a minimum standard for the "Mad Minute" of 15 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, veterans could do 20-30, Riflemen were Classed, and paid, by this (Edgeworthy Senior could manage 25). All of its Regulars were trained to this standard, it was part of the of the 1909 Musketry Regulations.
The record arguably still stands. In June 2019 at a Norwegian Shooting Competition 39 hits were achieved in a minute. However, this was at a shorter range (218 yards) at a larger target (15.75 inches).
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:35 pm

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edgeworthy wrote:
Daryl wrote:I wasn't even aware of this up to now. Hardly a national panic matter. My old Lee Enfield 303 bolt action has a 10 round magazine, and that, being the fastest bolt action ever, could nearly equal that rate of fire, and it's legal. It also fires military ammunition that is of similar power to this gun with its 308 or 7.62 NATO ammo.
Over time I've owned bolt action 30-06 and 8 mm Mauser rifles that have more powerful ammo. All under our current rules. We can buy bigger stuff like Weatherby as well.
Reading the article it seemed to be written by a particularly emotional and dumb 15 year old. Full of emotive and inaccurate language. Lots of them and us rubbish about people trying to stop gun owners, just not true.






The record for a SMLE is 38 aimed shots in a minute, not just fired but hitting a 12 inch target at 300 yards.
The British Army expected a minimum standard for the "Mad Minute" of 15 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, veterans could do 20-30, Riflemen were Classed, and paid, by this (Edgeworthy Senior could manage 25). All of its Regulars were trained to this standard, it was part of the of the 1909 Musketry Regulations.
The record arguably still stands. In June 2019 at a Norwegian Shooting Competition 39 hits were achieved in a minute. However, this was at a shorter range (218 yards) at a larger target (15.75 inches).


Just for a bit of actual information to provide context, this is the FBI data on weapons used in homicides in recent years. The number of homicides committed with rifles in the US has been plummetting for decades. The same is true for shotguns.


https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-8.xls

The "other guns" and "firearm not stated" categories undoubtedly include rifles and shotguns.


As for "mass shootings", most are committed with handguns rather than "assault rifles."

I would be willing to discuss enhanced background checks. My psychopathic pot plantationist tenant could be the poster child for Red Flag laws. He got off because the prosecutor was young, inexperienced and ignorant about firearms which enabled his scum sucking whore of an attorney to invoke the Elmer Fudd defense. The jury which had been carefully purged of gun owners was credulous enough to believe it. A jury of gun owners, especially if reminded of the true potential range of a shotgun, would have convicted. I suspect that jury of Europeans who do not view shotguns as familiar and harmless would also convict.

Just FYI, "Scout Rifles" are becoming popular in the US. They are bolt action but with detachable box magazines, usually of 5 or 10 round capacity. Most are chambered in .308 (7.62 x 51 mm) but they are offerred in 30-06, .270 and other calibers.

I have no doubt that a decent marksman armed with a scout rifle could have easily exceeded the fatalities at the Los Vegas masaacre. Few seem to realize that the 5.56 bullets were barely supersonic at the 500 to 600 meter range. American gun owners still remember the Texas Clock Tower Massacre. "GUN NUTS" armed with M1 Garand battle rifles kept the guy pinned down while another "gun nut" helped the police scale the tower to take him at close range.

I do not own a .303 caliber Lee Enfield but my brother in law owns a few. They are fun to shoot and they are safe to carry with a round chamberred. I consider the rimmed, .303, low pressure cartridge to be ballistically "inferior" to .308, but the .308 is massively inferior to the 30-06 much less the .300 Winchester Magnum. Don't get me started on the magical ballistics of the 7mm Magnum. However; I do own a few 30-30 lever action rifles plus a 45-70 in stainless steel, so I am not a velocity snob. Tons of fun to shoot, plus it reminds me of QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER with the unforgetable Crazy Cora.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:36 am

Daryl
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Posts: 2914
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

I do not own a .303 caliber Lee Enfield but my brother in law owns a few. They are fun to shoot and they are safe to carry with a round chamberred. I consider the rimmed, .303, low pressure cartridge to be ballistically "inferior" to .308, but the .308 is massively inferior to the 30-06 much less the .300 Winchester Magnum. Don't get me started on the magical ballistics of the 7mm Magnum. However; I do own a few 30-30 lever action rifles plus a 45-70 in stainless steel, so I am not a velocity snob. Tons of fun to shoot, plus it reminds me of QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER with the unforgetable Crazy Cora.


I agree with your ballistic comments, although the 303 (real diameter 310) isn't a lot inferior to the 308, particularly in non military guise with nitro cellulose instead of cordite.
A point of interest I might make was we tried some penetrating tests using different calibres with wood and mild steel plates.
The 303 and 308 were similar, but the 30 06 and 8 mm Mauser penetrated further, but the surprise was the 7.62 x 39 AK47 round that equaled them despite being half the length. Having a steel sabot in the projectile obviously helped.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:00 pm

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Daryl wrote:
I do not own a .303 caliber Lee Enfield but my brother in law owns a few. They are fun to shoot and they are safe to carry with a round chamberred. I consider the rimmed, .303, low pressure cartridge to be ballistically "inferior" to .308, but the .308 is massively inferior to the 30-06 much less the .300 Winchester Magnum. Don't get me started on the magical ballistics of the 7mm Magnum. However; I do own a few 30-30 lever action rifles plus a 45-70 in stainless steel, so I am not a velocity snob. Tons of fun to shoot, plus it reminds me of QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER with the unforgetable Crazy Cora.


I agree with your ballistic comments, although the 303 (real diameter 310) isn't a lot inferior to the 308, particularly in non military guise with nitro cellulose instead of cordite.
A point of interest I might make was we tried some penetrating tests using different calibres with wood and mild steel plates.
The 303 and 308 were similar, but the 30 06 and 8 mm Mauser penetrated further, but the surprise was the 7.62 x 39 AK47 round that equaled them despite being half the length. Having a steel sabot in the projectile obviously helped.



Depth of steel armor pentration scales with velocity squared and linerarly with effective sectional desnsity. A projectile that deforms easily dramatically reduces effective sectional density, largely negating velocity.
Kalashnikov knew what he was doing.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:51 am

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I saw this news article.


https://www.mauiwatch.com/2019/09/maui- ... n-kahului/

The victim is lucky to have survived. Even light birdshot will pentrate 4"-6" of human tissue. Even one light pellet can be lethal. Hundreds of pellets create a massive wound. Light birdshot can also get into the vascular system and carried to the heart where it will cause a lethal heart attack.

If this shooting had occurred in Yamhill County Oregon, a corrupt attorney would present perjured testimony to invoke the Elmer Fudd defense. Judge Ladd Wiles and a jury of MacMinniville Morons would swallow it hook, line and sinker.
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