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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:19 pm

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The fame is attractive to them, after all, brevik did what he did to get his worldview out into public.

No. He did it because he thinks he needed to kill as many of those horrible communists as possible before they grew up to become politicians. In self defence... :roll:

Publicity was a bonus he hoped for and mostly got.

Furthermore, there seem to be permits required for just about everything to do with the gun, all of which must be held and signed prior to buying and using guns and ammo, and the requirements are strict. for exampe, a civilian requires a permit to carry his gun in public.

Yup, they´re in many ways stricter than here.

considering their gun death rates are less then 1 per 100,000, the swiss seem to be going about it the right way.

Yeah but part of it is due to the same reasons that some US concealed carry states have lower crime rates, demographics.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by RandomGraysuit   » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:34 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
However, by comparing different places, you quickly find that private gun ownership only has a minor deterrant effect. While making private gun ownership easy and common has a BIG effect on how easy it is for criminals to get weapons.


How would you explain Chicago, Baltimore and DC's murder rates then, all of which have had firearm laws known to be notoriously hard to comply with?
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:54 pm

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RandomGraysuit wrote:
How would you explain Chicago, Baltimore and DC's murder rates then, all of which have had firearm laws known to be notoriously hard to comply with?


I already did... If you compare those with the concealed carry places with reduced crime rates, you will find a neatly stacked bunch of things where they are the opposite of each other.

And then of course, simple fact of the world, do those places have ANY kind of restrictions on travel to or from there? Is there anyone actually doing even a minimal check for people bringing guns into the place?

I very much doubt it. Which means those rules are at least to some degree irrelevant.

It´s the same problem that have appeared here in Sweden with joining the EU and adding the bridge between Sweden and Denmark, as well as having an open border to Finland(which in turn has lots of trade with Russia and much less border checks now than before(and Russia is BIG, lots of places where stuff can come from and some of the longest hard to watch borders of the world)), illegal guns from all over Europe are coming in much easier now than before.

It has come to the point where Denmark is considering setting up new border checks on at least the border with Germany, because of the inflow of guns going to the Malmö/Köpenhamn region mostly comes through there.
And do notice that doing so would be on the edge of breaking the EU-rules(not to be done too lightly) for free movement.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:42 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
The fame is attractive to them, after all, brevik did what he did to get his worldview out into public.

No. He did it because he thinks he needed to kill as many of those horrible communists as possible before they grew up to become politicians. In self defence... :roll:

Publicity was a bonus he hoped for and mostly got.

Furthermore, there seem to be permits required for just about everything to do with the gun, all of which must be held and signed prior to buying and using guns and ammo, and the requirements are strict. for exampe, a civilian requires a permit to carry his gun in public.

Yup, they´re in many ways stricter than here.

considering their gun death rates are less then 1 per 100,000, the swiss seem to be going about it the right way.

Yeah but part of it is due to the same reasons that some US concealed carry states have lower crime rates, demographics.




yeah, demographics is always going to be a major factor in crime levels and many other things.


although, as pointed out by you in another post upstream, The US and Europe have further problems regarding guns, and that is loopholes and different laws within a geographical area. If each state in the US has different laws and regulations, its much easier to circumvent laws by buying legally, and then transporting to where its illegal. same with Europe. At least with Australia and New Zealand we are geographically seperated by oceans from our next nearest country, so the rules are easier to enforce, and in New Zealand, there is only one set of rules for the entire country, so there are very few loopholes. Still some left, but not as many as are pssible in the US and Europe.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by RandomGraysuit   » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:00 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
RandomGraysuit wrote:
How would you explain Chicago, Baltimore and DC's murder rates then, all of which have had firearm laws known to be notoriously hard to comply with?


I already did... If you compare those with the concealed carry places with reduced crime rates, you will find a neatly stacked bunch of things where they are the opposite of each other.

And then of course, simple fact of the world, do those places have ANY kind of restrictions on travel to or from there? Is there anyone actually doing even a minimal check for people bringing guns into the place?

I very much doubt it. Which means those rules are at least to some degree irrelevant.


I haven't had my morning coffee today, so maybe I'm a little slow. It could be because of the lack of caffeine that it sounds like what you're saying here is, "When owning and carrying guns is outlawed for law-abiding citizens, criminals can smuggle in and use guns."

Either that, or the presence of poor black Americans increases crime rates.

I'm not going to disagree with either statement, but I'm not quite sure if you intended to imply either of those things.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:55 pm

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RandomGraysuit wrote:
I haven't had my morning coffee today, so maybe I'm a little slow. It could be because of the lack of caffeine that it sounds like what you're saying here is, "When owning and carrying guns is outlawed for law-abiding citizens, criminals can smuggle in and use guns."

Shall i repeat myself perhaps? I´m not opposed to people owning guns, i´m however greatly opposed to reckless and stupid regulations, or the lack of regulations.
When it´s easier to get a gun than it is to get a drivers license for a car, then you have a BAD problem.

And what do you think the reason for less smuggling is when there are lots of legal weapons around eh?
Perhaps the fact that criminals then often have an easy time getting weapons anyway. With too slack regulations, criminals can even repeatedly get their guns pseudolegally. Something that seems depressingly common in USA due to how flawed the regulations are in some places.


RandomGraysuit wrote:Either that, or the presence of poor black Americans increases crime rates.

I'm not going to disagree with either statement, but I'm not quite sure if you intended to imply either of those things.

Those statements are yours alone. If you think that´s the only part of "demographics" that is relevant, think long and hard again.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Donnachaidh   » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:14 pm

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I think everyone here would appreciate you not talking about things you do not understand and have little to know experience with.

It's very frustrating and maddening when you listen to someone who hasn't lived there and doesn't know how things works tell you how things work in where you live.

Tenshinai wrote:
RandomGraysuit wrote:
I haven't had my morning coffee today, so maybe I'm a little slow. It could be because of the lack of caffeine that it sounds like what you're saying here is, "When owning and carrying guns is outlawed for law-abiding citizens, criminals can smuggle in and use guns."

Shall i repeat myself perhaps? I´m not opposed to people owning guns, i´m however greatly opposed to reckless and stupid regulations, or the lack of regulations.
When it´s easier to get a gun than it is to get a drivers license for a car, then you have a BAD problem.

And what do you think the reason for less smuggling is when there are lots of legal weapons around eh?
Perhaps the fact that criminals then often have an easy time getting weapons anyway. With too slack regulations, criminals can even repeatedly get their guns pseudolegally. Something that seems depressingly common in USA due to how flawed the regulations are in some places.


RandomGraysuit wrote:Either that, or the presence of poor black Americans increases crime rates.

I'm not going to disagree with either statement, but I'm not quite sure if you intended to imply either of those things.

Those statements are yours alone. If you think that´s the only part of "demographics" that is relevant, think long and hard again.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by RandomGraysuit   » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:10 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:When it´s easier to get a gun than it is to get a drivers license for a car, then you have a BAD problem.


Oh, I see the issue; you completely missed the context of the cities I referred to. In Washington DC and Chicago, it has been illegal for a law-abiding citizen to own a handgun for many years. Not hard. Illegal.

The Supreme Court recently told both cities in no uncertain terms in separate court cases that they were in violation of the Second Amendment.

Chicago has decided to try abiding by the Supreme Court's rather nasty and pointed written opinion and decision by telling people that they may own a handgun after training at a registered gun range, then prohibiting gun ranges. If a normal, non-political person were to try this, they would be seeing serious jail time for contempt of court.

Baltimore makes concealed carry of a weapon effectively illegal for normal, non-politically connected citizens who are not police officers, armored car drivers, or walking around with a public bounty on their head from the Mafia. Once you leave your front door, you are basically only permitted to carry a weapon while en route to a gun range. While it is technically possible for a non-politician to own and carry a handgun, the near-100% result from an application is "We have looked at your circumstances and determined you have no good reason to be allowed to possess a firearm."

Despite the incredibly stringent anti-gun laws, as of the most recent statistics, Baltimore is #5 on the US cities murder list, Washington DC is #14, and Chicago is #16. On overall violent crime, Baltimore is #7, Washington DC 16, and Chicago has stopped even trying to keep track. The number one city on the murder rate? New Orleans, where in 2003 the US military went on a widespread snatch-and-grab of registered firearms.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:17 am

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I don't want to further stir up trouble but I do support Tenshinai in this. After careful rereading I can't see any reference he made to races, and also I can see how an external viewpoint can be useful. Just because someone doesn't live in an area is no reason to dismiss their opinion. I own a number of guns (rifles and shotguns), plus other weapons but don't own a hand gun as the only use I can see for a hand gun is to shoot people at close range. Useless for hunting as the accurate range is limited and dangerous to carry as it is much easier to accidentally have the noisy end pointed at you.
While criminals here do continue to get handguns they are not as common as in the US, because as Spacekiwi said we have a moat, so someone can't just put some in his car and drive here from an area where they are more easily obtained.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Donnachaidh   » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:54 am

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Mostly it's the condescending tone Tenshinai manages to have in almost every post. Neither you nor Spacekiwi have had that tone nor do you attack, rather you address specific points in a calm, polite, and reasonable manner.

Daryl wrote:I don't want to further stir up trouble but I do support Tenshinai in this. After careful rereading I can't see any reference he made to races, and also I can see how an external viewpoint can be useful. Just because someone doesn't live in an area is no reason to dismiss their opinion. I own a number of guns (rifles and shotguns), plus other weapons but don't own a hand gun as the only use I can see for a hand gun is to shoot people at close range. Useless for hunting as the accurate range is limited and dangerous to carry as it is much easier to accidentally have the noisy end pointed at you.
While criminals here do continue to get handguns they are not as common as in the US, because as Spacekiwi said we have a moat, so someone can't just put some in his car and drive here from an area where they are more easily obtained.
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