Guns, Guns Guns

Annachie wrote:You might want to provide examples JOAT.

Mostly because I suspect your examples are going to be unstable/ corrupt governments.

Yes, of course. Stable and non corrupt governments provides social security for their citizens to lessen economic and social divides. If the people are happy, why would they need guns? It's not rocket science although some people thinks it's an impossible pipe dream.

Joat42 wrote:And strict gun control doesn't really work in any country if you have high social and economic injustice.

In any country, 'strict gun control' works just as well as any other form of prohibition. As in, very, very badly. As soon as you 'ban' something people want, it provides a source of income for criminals and breeds corruption. Criminals in cities and countries with 'strict gun control' obtain guns with ease; it's just everybody else who's disarmed.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a crime problem, and the only anti-crime measure that works — putting criminals in prison and keeping them there — is anathema to the 'progressive' politicians. Over 70% of crimes are committed by known criminals that should be in prison but were let out early.
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If you call 9-1-1 and tell them that somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them that somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Imaginos, how can you possibly claim that.

The western country with the most prisoners, most crime, and most guns, is the USA.

Surely if guns and prisons prevented crime, the USA would have the lowest crime rate by far.

So clearly something you said must be completely wrong.

Well, another problem we have is that a lot of things are crimes that shouldn't be, as a result of — guess what? — PROHIBITIONS! That accounts for a lot of that large prison population.

I can recall when they decided to 'get tough on drugs' by sentencing people to 5, even 10 years for possessing small amounts of marijuana. Gambling is a crime in most places. Prostitutes and their customers are put in jail — why exactly is that a crime in the first place? There are still laws against adultery on the books, even if enforcement has kind of fallen off.

I say if you ain't hurtin' somebody else, it's none of the gummint's bizness.
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If the government sells millions of tickets and gives some of the money to a few randomly selected ticket buyers, they call it a State Lottery and say it’s a wunnerful way to raise money. If private citizens do the exact same thing, they call it a Numbers Racket and throw them in jail.

Gun control worked in Australia. You can still own guns, if licensed and registered, but not assault rifles (auto or semi auto), and hand guns are very strictly regulated. Very few crimes now involve guns, and virtually none involve assault rifles. We had one here a year ago that made national news, and is still topical today. I'm not anti gun, having several registered ones, plus handed in two assault rifles at the buy back.
I believe that part of the US crime and high prison levels, is your lack of a national welfare system. Reading the Washington Post today, the US definition of extreme poverty is living on $4 a day or less. The Trump administration says 250k are in that situation while the UN says it is about 18.5M. The difference is a mix of political lying and not counting charity like food stamps. Do people really think they can have an underclass like that, and it not cause crime? If my kids were hungry and there was no alternative, I'd steal.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:And strict gun control doesn't really work in any country if you have high social and economic injustice.

In any country, 'strict gun control' works just as well as any other form of prohibition. As in, very, very badly. As soon as you 'ban' something people want, it provides a source of income for criminals and breeds corruption. Criminals in cities and countries with 'strict gun control' obtain guns with ease; it's just everybody else who's disarmed.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a crime problem, and the only anti-crime measure that works — putting criminals in prison and keeping them there — is anathema to the 'progressive' politicians. Over 70% of crimes are committed by known criminals that should be in prison but were let out early.
———————————
If you call 9-1-1 and tell them that somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them that somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Gun control is not prohibition. Gun control is a check so unreliable people doesn't get hold of a tool that's dangerous, just like most countries require you to have a drivers license before you are allowed to drive a vehicle.

And the reasoning that 'if you ban something people want it' is flawed. In most western countries gun control are strict but for some reason I don't see the masses clamoring for weapons. Regulation is not the same as banning.

And putting criminals in jail is far easier than trying to solve the underlying causes for their behavior.

Putting petty criminals in jails is great, if you own shares in private jails.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:And strict gun control doesn't really work in any country if you have high social and economic injustice.

In any country, 'strict gun control' works just as well as any other form of prohibition. As in, very, very badly. As soon as you 'ban' something people want, it provides a source of income for criminals and breeds corruption. Criminals in cities and countries with 'strict gun control' obtain guns with ease; it's just everybody else who's disarmed.

Every other stable developed nation on earth AND their crime statistics beg to differ with your claim here.

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."
— Thomas Jefferson

What many don't realize is that Americans have had the use of firearms since we were snotty nosed kids "home on the range." Kids were literally taught to handle guns as soon as they could hold them. Guns were instrumental in taming the Old West and
are as part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... as air.

Gun control in the United States began with Wyatt Earp.

There has been no mainland invasion of the United States. At the heart of every American citizen beats the thought that he will be armed. If so.

.

I grew up on a station (ranch) and used guns as tools and entertainment from a young age. Still have five, all legal.
Thus am not anti guns, but would politely disagree with you on this.
Firstly your Jefferson quote of "no freeman", has several problems; acceptance of slavery, exclusion of women, and no provision for a criminal or insane "freeman" to be excluded.

The "we in America" only rings true for some of you. The majority nowadays have grown up in a metropolis, and have never touched a gun, nor do they want to, so it doesn't beat in their hearts.

The allusion to repelling invaders would have held some truth once, but modern warfare has passed that by as well.

cthia wrote:"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."
— Thomas Jefferson

What many don't realize is that Americans have had the use of firearms since we were snotty nosed kids "home on the range." Kids were literally taught to handle guns as soon as they could hold them. They were instrumental in taming the Old West and are as part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... as air.

There has been no mainland invasion of the United States. At the heart of every American citizen beats the thought that he will be armed. If so.