Guns, Guns Guns

MAD-4A wrote:As to me owning a gun, Just too poor - and too busy spending my money on sifi & game minis - hoping to get my BA soon and a decent paying job. Once I can afford my own house, I hope to be able to purchase the necessary tools to protect it properly.

How many people do you plan on shooting once you do get that job?

MAD-4A wrote:

gcomeau wrote:Uh huh.... I was under the impression you were a gun owning US citizen. Was I wrong about that?

Yes, about the first part, you are. I am a Texas, and a believer in the personal freedoms this State represents, freedoms that can not be protected by a power mad government run by greedy, lying, selfish, politicians who want nothing better than to declare themselves dictator-for-life. it doesn't mater what economic system you have, those anti-gun countries that haven't fallen to dictatorship only hold onto their tenuous freedom through political infighting between different politicians both wanting to be the one in-charge.

So.... you think the *entire* developed world except the US is one step away from dictatorship? Really? Because I'm pretty sure by your criteria they pretty much ALL are "those anti-gun countries". Sweden, France, UK, Canada, Denmark, Spain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand.... all just teetering on the edge of dictatorship as soon as one political party gets sufficient control in an election sometime? Give me a break.

Socialism is the worst, because it (out of design) concentrates ALL the power in a few greedy politicians who can then use that power to make the others 'disappear', but it is not impossible - or even unheard-of in free societies (such as the Weimar Republic).

Good thing most developed nations use variants of the Social Democratic model. Which is nothing like that and as you probably have not noticed tends to produce the happiest highest standard of living most free populations in the world.

As to me owning a gun, Just too poor - and too busy spending my money on sifi & game minis

Well, for now you're safer statistically speaking... too bad you don't realize it.

- hoping to get my BA soon and a decent paying job. Once I can afford my own house, I hope to be able to purchase the necessary tools to protect it properly.

gcomeau wrote:If not, it seems all those guns you think the country needs to have floating around everywhere to deter or deal with crime aren't working so hot are they?

Sure they are, most of those used in crimes are ILLEGAL guns, stolen, smuggled, S# filed off, a lot from Mexico.

Wow, are you ever missing the point.

(Besides the detail that the bulk of the illegal gun flow is the other way.... *into* Mexico FROM the US. There is zero point trying to smuggle guns from Mexico across the border into the US when it is so absurdly easy to just buy them here. Guns are HARD to buy in Mexico and EASY to buy here. It would take a first class moron to run a gun smuggling operation that moved guns from south to north. It would be like trying to set up a business importing snow to Alaska, from Texas.)

The point is there are a crapload of guns in the US general population. A ridiculous amount of them. An amount that dwarfs that of other developed nations.

It is not making people safer than in those other nations. Criminals aren't afraid to commit crimes because they might run into an armed citizen. Quite the exact opposite.

Do you really think there is Any law, that ANYONE could make, that will somehow make an ILLEGAL weapon used for ILLEGAL activity somehow TOO illegal for criminals to use?

I refer you to.... the rest of the developed world.

I mean ffs, really, why do gun people keep making these arguments like they're fantasy hypotheticals that they can make up the answers to? Are you unaware of the existence of the rest of planet Earth? We know how gun control works. And the answer is, better than the joke of what passes for gun regulations in the US. By any objective measure.

Making guns illegal only prevents law abiding citizens from having them - NOT CRIMINALS - DUH how hard of a concept is that to comprehend

I always have trouble comprehending blithering nonsense. Most rational people do.

Making guns illegal drastically curtails supply over time. It isn't that there aren't criminals who still want them, but it becomes harder and harder to GET them. And getting caught with them tends to carry nasty penalties if they do, eventually it becomes contra-indicated to try and get them at all except for a minority of truly hard cases. And then if they use them they tend to attract the full attention of the entire local police force because instead of being "oh there was another shooting today, what is that 15 this week? Ho hum" it's "we have a report of someone discharging a gun, get everyone over there and deal with it now!"


As demonstrated by, I call your attention once again..... the rest of the freaking developed world.

To me the danger is not from organised crime. Sure they can afford to get guns, although we are talking serious money in any developed country other than the US. These people tend to be careful with their guns.
But the danger is in the disaffected, the petty drug affected crook, or lone wolf terrorist. In most developed societies these people have significant difficulty getting a gun, you need connections and money. Plus semi autos are particularly hard to get.
I went to my local police station on Monday to renew my gun license, good for another ten years, so not onerous.

MAD, I would hate to live in your reality.

Though to be fair, if I can ever get the money I do want to aquire a black powder rifle.

If I'm not going to hit didly squat I may as well have fun doing it

Annachie wrote:Though to be fair, if I can ever get the money I do want to acquire a black powder rifle.

If I'm not going to hit didly squat I may as well have fun doing it

Now those... NOT covered by any current gun laws. No background check, no CCW permit. In some states, even legal for ex-felons to own and hunt with.

Here fairly well regulated.

Iirc, and it's been a few years, must belong to a gun club that is willing to have them.

A flintlock is fun. Squeeze the trigger, a click and sparks,
about two seconds later a thunderous boom and big shoulder shove.
If conditions are right it is occasionally possible to see the projectile in flight. Quite inaccurate but I wouldn't like to be hit by one.

Annachie wrote:Here fairly well regulated.

Iirc, and it's been a few years, must belong to a gun club that is willing to have them.

Daryl wrote:A flintlock is fun. Squeeze the trigger, a click and sparks,
about two seconds later a thunderous boom and big shoulder shove.
If conditions are right it is occasionally possible to see the projectile in flight. Quite inaccurate but I wouldn't like to be hit by one.

Annachie wrote:Here fairly well regulated.

Iirc, and it's been a few years, must belong to a gun club that is willing to have them.

Ah, yes, the burning eyes, choking taste of saltpeter and the stench of sulfur. Those memories come crashing back. I forgot (or buried the memories) the times going out shooting my grandfather's black powder shotgun.

gcomeau wrote:If not, it seems all those guns you think the country needs to have floating around everywhere to deter or deal with crime aren't working so hot are they?

Sure they are, most of those used in crimes are ILLEGAL guns, stolen, smuggled, S# filed off, a lot from Mexico.[/quote]

Wow, are you ever missing the point.

(Besides the detail that the bulk of the illegal gun flow is the other way.... *into* Mexico FROM the US. There is zero point trying to smuggle guns from Mexico across the border into the US when it is so absurdly easy to just buy them here. Guns are HARD to buy in Mexico and EASY to buy here. It would take a first class moron to run a gun smuggling operation that moved guns from south to north. It would be like trying to set up a business importing snow to Alaska, from Texas.)

The point is there are a crapload of guns in the US general population. A ridiculous amount of them. An amount that dwarfs that of other developed nations.

It is not making people safer than in those other nations. Criminals aren't afraid to commit crimes because they might run into an armed citizen. Quite the exact opposite.[/quote]

No. Most of the firearms in Mexico are from other sources other than the US. US made firearms are only about 24-27% of the total number of firearms in Mexico. Most of the US made firearms in Mexico are stolen from, ironically, Mexican sources (ie federal and state authorities and the military) rather than smuggled across the US/Mexican border. That said, I believe the US is the single largest source of firearms, but it is by no means the only source and the percentage of US made firearms is a small percentage of the total. Smuggling is also very illegal. And moving, and -selling- firearms without the proper licensees is hugely illegal in the US. You need a Federal Firearms License to be able to sell more than a very few firearms (private sales are allowed only if it's below a certain number per year).
The snow from Alaska to Texas doesn't fit since those states are in the same union and have little to no legal impediment in moving goods (snow in this case) between them. Between the US and Mexico, there are legal barriers in trade.

There is not a ridiculous amount of firearms, unless you are inclined to not want a lot of firearms in private hands. Most other nations also do not have the 2nd as a part of their rights. Although the Czech republic is changing that since they are adding a version of the 2nd Amendment to their constitution giving its citizens the right to have and own firearms.

Do you really think there is Any law, that ANYONE could make, that will somehow make an ILLEGAL weapon used for ILLEGAL activity somehow TOO illegal for criminals to use?

I refer you to.... the rest of the developed world.

I mean ffs, really, why do gun people keep making these arguments like they're fantasy hypotheticals that they can make up the answers to? Are you unaware of the existence of the rest of planet Earth? We know how gun control works. And the answer is, better than the joke of what passes for gun regulations in the US. By any objective
measure.[/quote]

The rest of the developed world has different priorities. We take our rights seriously, which means any attempts to infringe upon them is resisted I know a lot on the left/Democrats (certainly their leadership) do not see the 2nd as worth being a right, so they try to do work around laws to restrict it's use. Which is illegal as hell and they refuse to use the legal option available for them (amending the US Constitution). To them, they would see the 2nd made into a privilage, like it is for most of the rest of the world. But here it's a -right-, which puts it on a completely different level. That's the big difference between us. You see the 2nd as something that should be a privilege. We see it as a right. And as a right, you CAN'T stop us from using it, as much as you'd like to. Rights aren't supposed to be infringed upon. It's the same reason why our free speech rights are much more open than those in the rest of the world. We tolerate things the rest of the world is more likely to shut down hard.

Another problem with gun control is that the laws proposed for it do not really affect the criminals. They are already doing illegal actions, why would they obey gun laws? And the laws we do have aren't enforced. There is a problem in the US of the large urban areas not enforcing the gun laws we do have, on criminals. In places like Chicago and New York City, when criminals are caught with firearms, it's not unusual for the prosecutor to drop any firearm charges to get them to agree to other charges on the rap sheet. This means there are many hundreds to -thousands- of criminals who should have had longer sentences because of firearm related crimes get the firearm charges dropped. Then you have agencies like the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) which have a very poor record for enforcing gun laws and have more than once abused their authority to do so (they were enforcing it against law abiding citizens and ignoring the criminals they were -supposed- to be using their authority against), and are the ones responsible for the Fast and Furious gun program.

Making guns illegal only prevents law abiding citizens from having them - NOT CRIMINALS - DUH how hard of a concept is that to comprehend

I always have trouble comprehending blithering nonsense. Most rational people do.

Making guns illegal drastically curtails supply over time. It isn't that there aren't criminals who still want them, but it becomes harder and harder to GET them. And getting caught with them tends to carry nasty penalties if they do, eventually it becomes contra-indicated to try and get them at all except for a minority of truly hard cases. And then if they use them they tend to attract the full attention of the entire local police force because instead of being "oh there was another shooting today, what is that 15 this week? Ho hum" it's "we have a report of someone discharging a gun, get everyone over there and deal with it now!"


As demonstrated by, I call your attention once again..... the rest of the freaking developed world.

So to get firearms out of the hands of criminals, you are willing to punish/disarm the rest of your population? That wouldn't fly here. It also won't work since the authorities in many places, especially Democrat run cities, won't enforce the laws we already have -now- on criminals. So it's hard for me and millions of others to understand how more laws would work. Unless your intention is to punish the law abiding to get at the small percentage of people who are criminals.

You're also assuming that our belief in the 2nd is nonsense. The US is, in many aspects, it's own world in regards to rights, culture and economy. We are a LOT different than other developed nations; from our culture, to our system of government, rights, and beliefs. Given the size of the US (territory and population) and the number of firearms in privately owned hands, the rate of gun deaths is stupidly small. Even mass killings are a statistically rounding insignificant. The numbers also do not add up between firearm deaths and the total number of firearms in the US. We have more guns than people, yet the number of people killed with firearms is very very small (about 30,000-35,000 per year atm). That's way way WAY less than 1%. It's about 1% of 1% of the total US population. More people are killed in automobile accidents than by firearms.
It gets even more different when you break down the types of gun deaths. Suicides and gang violence (thank you War on Drugs... ) accounts for a huge percentage of those deaths and the gang violence is usually located in only a few sections of urban areas. Remove those areas and the number of firearm deaths drops to near European levels.
The main problem in the US isn't a gun problem, it's a violence problem. Without addressing -why- people resort to violence, trying to remove firearms does nothing to reduce violence itself. Yes you might reduce gun deaths, but like in Australia, other deaths and forms of violence would likely pick up and deaths overall would not necessarily go down.

That being said, even with the huge number of firearms in the US, major crimes, including gun deaths, in the US have been consistently falling for decades. The trend is already on the way down and has been so since the 1980s or so.