Guns, Guns Guns

Joat,

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

The FBI homicide data that is cited for the US is different than most countries because unintentional killings (ie, beating someone to death but without intent to kill) are counted along with intentional murders. There is NO seperate category. As a result, US has an astonishingly high rate of reported homicides of young children (11 years old and younger) who are beaten, bludgeoned, burned and sometimes drowned or stabbed to death. Most of these killings are committed by mothers, mother's boyfriend or new husband, fathers or step siblings. Most of these child killings are adjudicated to be manslaughter rather than murder because there was no intent to kill.

Mexico and most Latin American countries have gun control laws that are as stringent as Sweden's. Most have homicide rates far higher than America's. Culture as well as profeciency of the police and jurisprudence are at least as important a factor as availability of weapons.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Joat,

See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

The FBI homicide data that is cited for the US is different than most countries because unintentional killings (ie, beating someone to death but without intent to kill) are counted along with intentional murders. There is NO seperate category. As a result, US has an astonishingly high rate of reported homicides of young children (11 years old and younger) who are beaten, bludgeoned, burned and sometimes drowned or stabbed to death. Most of these killings are committed by mothers, mother's boyfriend or new husband, fathers or step siblings. Most of these child killings are adjudicated to be manslaughter rather than murder because there was no intent to kill.

Beating someone to death without intent to kill (ie not premeditated) is a willful act which usually is called nonnegligent manslaughter as I understand it. A perpetrator has the option to stop the beating at any point but when it results in a death it's willful and it shows up in the statistics for intentional homicides and nonnegligent manslaughter.

Anyway, Sweden doesn't differentiate between categories at all in it's statistics since any deaths due to a criminal violent action, ie beatings, knifing, shootings, arson, terrorism etc are included.

Anyway, a person killed by a violent action is; no matter what the intent behind it was, still dead and part of the statistics.

Annachie wrote:I'd agree, except that Australia makes

gcomeau wrote:Toronto is the 4th most populous

Australia and Canada both have smaller populations than California, and much more spread out. That tends to result in lower crime rates.

The US is nearly as big as all of Europe, both in size and population, and the different ethnic groups are all thrown together, instead of each having their own country.

Joat42 wrote:If you arbitrarily remove some types of homicides from the statistics

What about police killing criminals?

What about people killing criminals in self-defense?
A lot more of that happens in the US than in Europe.
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They say I can't be a nonconformist because I'm not like the other nonconformists.

Hence the comment about sprawl.

New Yorks pop is a bit over 8.8mil
LA's about 4 mil.

Both Sydney and Melbourne are over 4 mil.

But you can twist any facts you like, they will still show that guns are more dangerous than any self defence can justify, short of military type actions.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:If you arbitrarily remove some types of homicides from the statistics

What about police killing criminals?

What about people killing criminals in self-defense?
A lot more of that happens in the US than in Europe.

Uhm, if the action is deemed justified it's not a criminal act and doesn't count as intentional homicide.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Annachie wrote:I'd agree, except that Australia makes

gcomeau wrote:Toronto is the 4th most populous

Australia and Canada both have smaller populations than California, and much more spread out. That tends to result in lower crime rates.

Which is why the comparison was made between comparable high density metropolitan centers and not crimes per capita in the Canadian Northwest Territories vs Southern California or something.

The US is nearly as big as all of Europe, both in size and population, and the different ethnic groups are all thrown together, instead of each having their own country.

Just as they are in major cities in Canada like Toronto. Millions of people from completely different ethnic groups. And yet... they aren't constantly getting shot like they are in US cities.

Guess what the difference is. (We have already established what the difference is NOT)

gcomeau wrote:



Which is why the comparison was made between comparable high density metropolitan centers and not crimes per capita in the Canadian Northwest Territories vs Southern California or something.



Just as they are in major cities in Canada like Toronto. Millions of people from completely different ethnic groups. And yet... they aren't constantly getting shot like they are in US cities.

Guess what the difference is. (We have already established what the difference is NOT)

You ignore Mexico which has European style gun laws yet has a homicide rate five times that of the United States. Americans need only look South across our border to seethe evidence that gun control doesnt work. Washington DC is also an excellent example.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

gcomeau wrote:



Which is why the comparison was made between comparable high density metropolitan centers and not crimes per capita in the Canadian Northwest Territories vs Southern California or something.



Just as they are in major cities in Canada like Toronto. Millions of people from completely different ethnic groups. And yet... they aren't constantly getting shot like they are in US cities.

Guess what the difference is. (We have already established what the difference is NOT)

You ignore Mexico which has European style gun laws yet has a homicide rate five times that of the United States.

And rampant corruption and a major drug war... which is why we do comparisons between comparable, stable, developed nations which are *supposed* to be capable of maintaining law and order.

If you want to argue the US shouldn't be in that category of nations and should instead be grouped with Mexico, have at it.

Is that what you are arguing?

And a known problem with guns being snuck in from the US and it's much weaker gun laws.

If only there was a similar situation we could point to, like Chicago and all the guns being snuck in from Indiana.

Also, Mexico's gun related death rate is almost half that of the US. (That's all gun deaths)
It has a gun murder rate that is nearly equal to the US.

Joat42 wrote:

Imaginos1892 wrote:



What about police killing criminals?

What about people killing criminals in self-defense?
A lot more of that happens in the US than in Europe.

Uhm, if the action is deemed justified it's not a criminal act and doesn't count as intentional homicide.

You have no idea what games police play when submitting Supplementary Homicide Reports to the FBI. Only about 1/3 of homicides by police are accurately reported as such. Many are even deemed to be "suicide by cop." Independant monitors estimate that US police now kill some 1,200 people per year. Almost all killings by police are with guns. Shootings by police are exqual to about one-tenth of US gun homicides.