Guns, Guns Guns

Daryl wrote:I grew up on a station (ranch) and used guns as tools and entertainment from a young age. Still have five, all legal.
Thus am not anti guns, but would politely disagree with you on this.
Firstly your Jefferson quote of "no freeman", has several problems; acceptance of slavery, exclusion of women, and no provision for a criminal or insane "freeman" to be excluded.

The "we in America" only rings true for some of you. The majority nowadays have grown up in a metropolis, and have never touched a gun, nor do they want to, so it doesn't beat in their hearts.

The allusion to repelling invaders would have held some truth once, but modern warfare has passed that by as well.

cthia wrote:"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."
— Thomas Jefferson

What many don't realize is that Americans have had the use of firearms since we were snotty nosed kids "home on the range." Kids were literally taught to handle guns as soon as they could hold them. They were instrumental in taming the Old West and are as part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... as air.

There has been no mainland invasion of the United States. At the heart of every American citizen beats the thought that he will be armed. If so.

Freedom beats in their hearts.

You cannot have freedom if you cannot protect your home and property. Try and take the freedom away from those people — who "grew up in Metropolis" — which is intertwined.

The quote by Thomas Jefferson has remnants of slavery, yes. That does not dismiss its inherent idea of guns that is held dear by Americans. Nor is gun control an ideal place to discuss slavery.

There are many people who do not own guns in America. Many of those same people do not want to own guns. Many of those same people are afraid of guns. That is no different than what existed in the Old West. Everyone in the Old West did not wear a holster.

Even so, many of those same people in the Old West, and here in the "tamed West," felt/feel safe because — even though they did not have or like guns — they knew their fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins liked them.

Here in America in the 21st century, those who do not own guns feel (felt) a bit safer because the huge US Armed Forces own them.

The government knows that they can have every single gun in America. After they pry them from cold, clammy claws.

You should be careful, as a non-American, stating what you think is at the heart, of Americans.

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Honestly Cthia, I'm not sure you could either.

You live in a pretty diverse place.

Annachie wrote:Honestly Cthia, I'm not sure you could either.

You live in a pretty diverse place.

I really can't Annachie. Unless I knew for a fact that it is inseparable from life, liberty, freedom and the pursuit of happiness. There is neither when you can't protect your family after an intruder, or gang of intruders, breaks in.

Is there a chance to inherently commandeer an American's right to protect himself? I can say definitively, with absolute certainty. Hell no, 'taint so.

Even the Americans who will be quick to vote guns away, won't ever give up the one he has under his mattress. And most Americans know that, which means he won't give up his either.

Say what you will, that is reality in America. Even amidst the atrocity of rampant killings.

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My brother said it best...

"I don't know what that is in the dark that's going bump in my family's night, but we all sleep a lot better about knowing whatever it is, daddy can shoot it."

Taking away a man's gun and making him live with the knowledge that he couldn't/can't do a damn thing while watching his wife, teenaged daughter and 9-yr-old raped, is not life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Once you open Pandora's box and let the guns out. You can't simply say "put them back in."

I suppose I can say that I feel better knowing that my dogs are barking at it before it's close enough to go bump.



Then again, I still want to buy a black powder gun

One thing we need to make clear...


You will be hard pressed to find a single man in America who feels the need to protect his loved ones by owning a gun, to give a shit what the clueless jackass — who lives down the street in his fairy-tale castle and has not yet been accosted — feels about owning a gun.

He is not in the least bit interested in waiting for that idiot to wake up and smell the coffee being brewed by the intruder in his home, who has just taken valuables and sexual liberties, before finally forcing him to run out and buy his own arsenal.

"Hey! What's with the fucking tank!"

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Annachie wrote:Honestly Cthia, I'm not sure you could either.

You live in a pretty diverse place.

By diverse you mean that America has become a melting pot. So true. Many people have come to these shores carrying their own ideals. But when you melt the innards of that pot down to the Americans whose roots lie in the Old West, "Hey, is that a gun?"

Not quite.

In that regard, of origins, I think Australia might be more diverse.

90% or so of us live in a band running down the east coast. Say Cairns down to Adelaide and about 60 miles inland.
80% or so of our business is in an even smaller band. Newcastle to Geelong.

That produces a fairly remarkable unity. Or did. It's breaking now.

It used to be the biggest difference was AFL or Rugby League. Or beer. CuB as opposed to, I'm betting XXXX for Daryl.


It's sad to say that it's the rise ultra nationalism that is changing Australia for the worse.

cthia wrote:My brother said it best...

"I don't know what that is in the dark that's going bump in my family's night, but we all sleep a lot better about knowing whatever it is, daddy can shoot it."

Taking away a man's gun and making him live with the knowledge that he couldn't/can't do a damn thing while watching his wife, teenaged daughter and 9-yr-old raped, is not life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

First, regulating guns is not "taking a man's gun away" unless of course said man is specifically unqualified to have one or insists on having a type which is ridiculously unnecessarily dangerous to those around him.

Second, the entire idea that guns are a requirement for either safety or freedom or happiness is a uniquely American delusion that borders on a pathology.

All those other developed nations that treat guns with sane and reasonable levels of regulation? Their citizens die at lower rates than Americans. So by any measure they are winning on the "life" front.

They all have far lower rates of incarceration so certainly more "liberty" there.... or if you prefer to measure it by the degree of personal and economic freedom (aka liberty) enjoyed even by those NOT locked in a prison cell even by the standards of the emphatically right leaning conservative/libertarian CATO institute the US is far from setting the standard there, ranking 17th. You may notice a common theme among all the nations above them on the list.

https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/ ... ndex-2.pdf

1 Switzerland
2 Hong Kong
3 New Zealand
4 Ireland
5 Australia
6 Finland
7 Norway
8 Denmark
9 Netherlands
9 United Kingdom
11 Canada
12 Austria
13 Sweden
13 Estonia
13 Luxembourg
16 Germany
17 United States

And as for happiness, well same story. Based on widespread polling by Gallup:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/happiness-repo ... HR_web.pdf

1. Finland
2. Norway
3. Denmark
4. Iceland
5. Switzerland
6. Netherlands
7. Canada
8. New Zealand
9. Sweden
10. Australia
11. Israel
12. Austria
13. Costa Rica
14. Ireland
15. Germany
16. Belgium
17. Luxembourg
18. United States


It appears the barrel of a gun is also not a happiness delivery mechanism.

So.... the US is losing at life.... losing at liberty.... and losing at happiness. Despite being the CRUSHING winner at "having guns".

Once you open Pandora's box and let the guns out. You can't simply say "put them back in."

Tell that to Australia, or any other nation that successfully implemented reasonable gun controls. Then again, it is a country populated mostly by rational adults. (At least in terms relative to the United States)

So what you are saying Cthia is that people mostly buy guns because they are afraid? Because that is what is boils down to in the end.

Even the amendment about the right to bear arms is founded in fear, fear of being under the yoke of the British again.

In my opinion, fear and guns is a good recipe for getting people killed unnecessarily since most people who buy guns in the US have no notion of gun safety. You are about 1500 times more likely to be shot by an American than a terrorist.

I have nothing against guns per se, but selling them to anyone who happens to have an ID without any kind of requirements of gun safety knowledge, shooting tests and some kind of mental evaluation is patently stupid. About 2/3 of all gun deaths in the US are suicides, who the f*ck in their right mind sell guns to unstable people?