Israel/Gaza - Here we go again...

Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign
An overwhelming majority of 86% of respondents, including 79% of coalition supporters, said the surprise attack from Gaza is a failure of the country's leadership.

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I think this is referencing the intelligence failure that allowed this to happen, not the Israeli reaction. There has NEVER been a chance of Hamas reaching any kind of diplomatic solution with Israel, their entire charter is based on the elimination of Israel and the Jewish people. They need to be utterly destroyed, while not killing Palestinian civilians wholesale. It will be interesting where things go from here.

Bookaholic wrote:There has NEVER been a chance of Hamas reaching any kind of diplomatic solution with Israel, their entire charter is based on the elimination of Israel and the Jewish people.

The flipside to that statement is that there has never been a chance of Israel reaching any kind of diplomatic solution with Hamas (or, for that matter, palestinians) either. This isn't a "Israel good, Hamas bad" situation, this is a "there have been mutual atrocities for a long time" situation, a "Israel is recreating its historical trauma against a minority population within its borders" situation.

They need to be utterly destroyed, while not killing Palestinian civilians wholesale. It will be interesting where things go from here.

Well, we've already seen where things are going, haven't we? Israel cutting off water to Gaza, issuing evacuation orders and then firing on the evacuating civilians... killing palestinian civilians wholesale seems to be an option that is very much on the menu for the IDF.

There’s a case to be made for Israel; teeth-gnashing, foaming at the mouth with a lot of hair tearing, accepting the fact of a cease-fire.
Hell, even allowing humanitarian aid convoys in through the Rafah Crossing!
With the caveat that all it would take would be a bit “Quid pro quo” from Gaza’s side!
If Israel announces their willingness to a cease fire, and to allow aid convoys…if Gaza would release all the hostages, those alive, as well as the bodies of those reported killed”!
The onus of responsibility for any further conflict would then be on Gaza!

Arol wrote:There’s a case to be made for Israel; teeth-gnashing, foaming at the mouth with a lot of hair tearing, accepting the fact of a cease-fire.
Hell, even allowing humanitarian aid convoys in through the Rafah Crossing!
With the caveat that all it would take would be a bit “Quid pro quo” from Gaza’s side!
If Israel announces their willingness to a cease fire, and to allow aid convoys…if Gaza would release all the hostages, those alive, as well as the bodies of those reported killed”!
The onus of responsibility for any further conflict would then be on Gaza!

No, fuck that. Israel is outright retaliating disproportionately against what is, for all intents and purposes, a goddamn prison riot!
For years, on this very forum, we had US gun nuts talk about how "the holocaust wouldn't have happened if the jews had been armed", and guess what chucklefucks: If they had been, the situation would have looked an awful fucking lot like Gaza does right now! Including people from all sides of the political spectrum suddenly finding out that yeah, what the germans are doing is very justified and surely the jews should show some good fucking will!

I do realize that this is more profanity than usual, even for me. But, jesus effin christ... moderation has to start with the aggressor, and like it or not, but the aggressor in this conflict? It's not Hamas. It's not palestinians.

Israel is losing the propaganda war!
A fact that’s obvious to anyone who watches the news. If the terrorist attack October seventh or the eventual fates of the hostages are mentioned at all, it’s usually as a small segment followed by the inevitable…but! Where we are inundated with a Gaza in ruins, people digging in the ruins, ambulances, streams of refugees etc.etc…
What does Israel have to answer with?
Home videos shot by the terrorists depicting their atrocities? Audio intercepts with bragging describing same? Old news!!!
Besides it would run counter to the views held by too many people the world over!
Anyone see the similarity to Vietnam?
Where the US won the battles, but ended up losing the war!!!

Maybe someone could explain to a layman, as to why it is Israel that’s facing the shitstorm???
Why is the victim being blamed, when they are only doing what any other nation would have done if similarly attacked? So even in hindsight what else could Israel have done in the aftermath of October seventh?
“Proportional Response” be dammed when it comes to war! As proof; and in violation of Godwin’s first law, names like Coventry, Nagasaki, Dresden and Hiroshima come to mind!.
In context of the current war they were the ones attacked on October 7! They were also the ones who had over 1,200 people slaughtered; most of the civilians, men women children, babes in cribs! Then as the cherry on the cake they were also subjected to a barrage of over 4,000 rockets. Both attacks originated from Gaza!
So as any other country would have done, they declared war!
So why the shitstorm, is it the unequal body count?
How can a Proportional Response be applied when Gaza is basically one big spread out city?

Arol wrote:Maybe someone could explain to a layman, as to why it is Israel that’s facing the shitstorm???

Because people expect a signatory to the 4th Geneva Convention actually try to minimize civilian causalities.

Let me ask you a question instead: When is it okay to kill innocent men, women and children in pursuit of your adversary and is it something we expect from a civilized country?

Joat42 wrote:

Arol wrote:Maybe someone could explain to a layman, as to why it is Israel that’s facing the shitstorm???

Because people expect a signatory to the 4th Geneva Convention actually try to minimize civilian causalities.

Let me ask you a question instead: When is it okay to kill innocent men, women and children in pursuit of your adversary and is it something we expect from a civilized country?

Please define a method on how Israel could find Hamas members in a city without killing an inordinate number of civilians. BTW, any method that requires an army greater than Israel can field will be treated with contempt.

The E wrote:No, fuck that. Israel is outright retaliating disproportionately against what is, for all intents and purposes, a goddamn prison riot!
For years, on this very forum, we had US gun nuts talk about how "the holocaust wouldn't have happened if the jews had been armed", and guess what chucklefucks: If they had been, the situation would have looked an awful fucking lot like Gaza does right now! Including people from all sides of the political spectrum suddenly finding out that yeah, what the germans are doing is very justified and surely the jews should show some good fucking will!

No, fuck this.

It's funny that you bring up WWII, because 7/10 was a pogrom with the worst loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust.

If Hamas is a prison gang, it's one which has been controlling the prison. For a decade and a half, we tried to avoid going into Gaza. We went so far as to try to buy off Hamas to keep things fairly quiet. And make no mistake, for all that Netanyahu is being exorciated now for "supporting" Hamas, the entire Western world supported that. I still remember the horror leftists expressed when Lieberman - who called for overthrowing the Hamas government - was appointed defense minister in 2017, thinking he would carry through.

In retrospect, we should have gone in back in 2007. Before Hamas had time to build up its weapons, fortify Gaza, dig its tunnels everywhere and develop its rockets so that now the entirety of Israel is in range. But we didn't. We were afraid of the casualties, both ours and the Palestinians. And now we have over 1200 dead and 240 hostages who no-one knows if they are even alive.

So once again, fuck that. Hamas has proven that we can't live with it as Gaza's ruler. And despite all the fantasies I've seen over social media, there's no clean way to root them out.

but the aggressor in this conflict? It's not Hamas.

You know, I have a lot of respect for you. This is making me reconsider.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Please define a method on how Israel could find Hamas members in a city without killing an inordinate number of civilians. BTW, any method that requires an army greater than Israel can field will be treated with contempt.

Why should I? It's entirely irrelevant to my question: When is it okay to kill innocent people?