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Never Trumpers....

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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:53 am

n7axw
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gcomeau wrote:
Don't forget court stacking with unqualified Trump loyalists.

Kind of an important detail you're overlooking there. The Senate has been full speed ahead on that Trump's entire term... after 8 entire years of deliberately emptying courts by refusing to allow Obama to appoint judges. Including the outright theft of a Supreme Court seat.


That is standard conservative fare; not Trump. All Trump has to do is pick a name off a list provided by the Federalist Society and submit it. McConnell takes over from there short circulating what has been normal Senate procedure to fast track the candidates. I don't like this at all, but it is a different subject than standing against Trump's crimes in conducting his office..

What I am crediting Romney and Amash for is being willing to stand for the rule of law against Trump, and in Amash's case against his constituents which will probably cost him his political career. I am not proposing that anyone vote for either of them.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:13 pm

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The E wrote:
n7axw wrote:Gracious man, you are acting like a right winger... Significant legislation wasn't passed then either because of the fillibuster. Almost everything takes 60 votes in the Senate. There are exceptions for financial stuff that I don't have a handle on which is how the tax bill that was the giveaway for the wealthy got through. But not much else. Republicans didn't even manage to get rid of Obama care which was their signature issue.


It's a matter of principle for me. Saying that you disavow Trump is easy; especially if you're praised for just doing that and there is little to no scrutiny to what you're actually doing about it. If you're claiming that Trump and his policies are a danger, but do not also start working against Trump's support structure in the GOP, then you're just a smidge hypocritical.

And, well.... standing up to Trump is great. Good job. But that doesn't change the fact that Trump could only exist because these people, in years and decades prior, have created the environment that Trump now exists in. Remember Romney's bullshit about how most americans are just passively taking money from the state and how "only 40% pay income taxes"? A soundbite so openly misleading that it could have come right from Trump's mouth?


Actually it was 48%. That doesn't make it look better, does it? :evil: All of the rest of what you say if true. Romney is a rich guy with a silver spoon shoved up his arse with far too much of a sense of his own entitlement.

But... things are never that simple. As governor of Massachusetts, he was the one who initiated Romneycare with is a healthcare program upon which Obamacare is modeled. He is a Mormon bishop who generously supports charity. Furthermore he doesn't spend time bragging about it. In short, he is more than a self-entitled rich Republican.

Look, I am gratified to find people on the other side of the fence willing to affirm the values of liberal democracy and the rule of law. Given what the Republican Party has become, that should be celebrated not dissed. Look, E, I am not disagreeing with your basic points. But it seems to me that you are conflating two different discussions here. Even apart from the disaster that the Trump era represents, I would oppose Romney's politics. I certainly don't advocate voting for the man.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by The E   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:37 pm

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n7axw wrote:Look, E, I am not disagreeing with your basic points. But it seems to me that you are conflating two different discussions here. Even apart from the disaster that the Trump era represents, I would oppose Romney's politics. I certainly don't advocate voting for the man.


Don't get me wrong here, them disavowing the Trumpet is good and all.

But the thing is, they're treating him as an aberration that came out of nowhere. I don't think they're actually prepared, let alone able, to reflect about their role in creating the environment that created and enabled Trump.
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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:58 pm

n7axw
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The E wrote:
n7axw wrote:Look, E, I am not disagreeing with your basic points. But it seems to me that you are conflating two different discussions here. Even apart from the disaster that the Trump era represents, I would oppose Romney's politics. I certainly don't advocate voting for the man.


Don't get me wrong here, them disavowing the Trumpet is good and all.

But the thing is, they're treating him as an aberration that came out of nowhere. I don't think they're actually prepared, let alone able, to reflect about their role in creating the environment that created and enabled Trump.


Some of them are. People like Schmidt and Wilson recognize what the Republican Party has become and believe that it must be rebuilt from the ground up or else replaced with a center right party founded on what they regard as true Republican principles. They want the current Republican Party defeated on all levels. I don't know how that will turn out. Any such attempt would have to be less ideological and more inclusive than anything we've seen out of the conservatives so far.

Stuart Stevens is soon publishing a book that will make these points. You might enjoy it.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:
gcomeau wrote:
Don't forget court stacking with unqualified Trump loyalists.

Kind of an important detail you're overlooking there. The Senate has been full speed ahead on that Trump's entire term... after 8 entire years of deliberately emptying courts by refusing to allow Obama to appoint judges. Including the outright theft of a Supreme Court seat.


That is standard conservative fare; not Trump. All Trump has to do is pick a name off a list provided by the Federalist Society and submit it. McConnell takes over from there short circulating what has been normal Senate procedure to fast track the candidates. I don't like this at all, but it is a different subject than standing against Trump's crimes in conducting his office..


Except no, it isn't different. Trump is an aspiring fascist. He has not made it a secret. His role models of strong leadership are pretty much ALL authoritarian dictators or aspiring dictators.

There are two primary checks against that in the system. Congress, and the Judiciary.

McConnell and the Senate GOP have completely removed the former as a factor. They have made it absolutely clear that no matter what crimes he commits they will cover for him and refuse to remove him or stop him.

That leaves the Judiciary as the last barrier standing. And they haven't *only* been picking names of a list from the Federalist society. Trump has also just been nominating totally unqualified people based on HIS liking of them and his perceptions of their loyalty to him. Like their likelyhood of ruling in his favor on things like, oh, corruptly using the DOJ to get his buddies off even after they have pleaded guilty to felonies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... e-n1231988

Those are not unrelated factors. By continuing to go along with this blatant court stacking they are going along with weakening one of the only things still standing between Trump and the collapse of the rule of law.
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Re: Never Trumpers....
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:51 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 5997
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Location: Viborg, SD

gcomeau wrote:
Except no, it isn't different. Trump is an aspiring fascist. He has not made it a secret. His role models of strong leadership are pretty much ALL authoritarian dictators or aspiring dictators.

There are two primary checks against that in the system. Congress, and the Judiciary.

McConnell and the Senate GOP have completely removed the former as a factor. They have made it absolutely clear that no matter what crimes he commits they will cover for him and refuse to remove him or stop him.

That leaves the Judiciary as the last barrier standing. And they haven't *only* been picking names of a list from the Federalist society. Trump has also just been nominating totally unqualified people based on HIS liking of them and his perceptions of their loyalty to him. Like their likelyhood of ruling in his favor on things like, oh, corruptly using the DOJ to get his buddies off even after they have pleaded guilty to felonies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... e-n1231988

Those are not unrelated factors. By continuing to go along with this blatant court stacking they are going along with weakening one of the only things still standing between Trump and the collapse of the rule of law.


As for Trump appointing people not on the Federalist Society List, I missed that trick. It more or less validates the rest of your post.

I was aware of the situation with the Flynn case. I am given to understand that appeals court reasoning in the judgment rendered there was pretty shoddy.

Have you noticed Glenn Kirshner's channel on Utuble? You might like that...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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