Time to read THE LAST CENTURION?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
This is just utter bull shit. Here is a reliable, apolitical source of information:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

I almost feel bad for pointing this out, but...

worldometer uses the numbers supplied by the John Hopkins University.
covidgraph uses the numbers supplied by the John Hopkins university.

Both websites are displaying exactly the same numbers from exactly the same sources. (:

The only difference is that covidgraph is displaying some curves which worldometer isn't. But the underlying numbers are the same.

The E wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are getting close. Eurotrash are foreigners who presume that they are more enlightened than Americans, or at least American conservatives, and therefore entitled to denigrate Americans. The attitude displays a profound obliviousness and ingratitude for America saving their butts during WW1 and WW2 then during the Cold War. This attitude is accompanied by a presumed right to influence American elections.

There is no end to the amount of gratitude we have for the USA that intervened in WW1 and WW2 and the people who fought in those wars, as well as the leaders who recognized that it is better to turn vanquished foes into strong allies than to leave them beaten and bleeding.

You, TFLY, are not part of either of these categories. You, personally, did not fight in WW2. You, personally, didn't do anything of note. None of the current leadership of the US can make a reasonable claim to the credit the heroes of WW2 and its aftermath deserve; We do owe eternal, personal gratitude to those individuals, not the USA.

Hell, you don't even deserve any credit for being a visible deterrent during the Cold War. That period of history ended 30 years ago; your country changed during that time, and not for the better.

Let me put it to you this way: If you think that what american actions in the 20th Century bought was a "get out of criticism" card, you are badly mistaken. What the US got were allies and friends, and what friends and allies would we be if we weren't willing to intervene and criticise if we see you making stupid decisions and terrible mistakes?

It isn't going to happen. America's economy is not dependant on global trade.

You really believe that, don't you. You can't be both independent of global trade and rich, so which are you going to choose?

We probably do have the resources here to support ourselves, but the transition would be wrenching and we wouldn't be as well off as we are now.

I would have to add that America does deserve credit for maintaining the post war order as long as we have. It is also true that we have made out pretty well in the deal. But Europe and the rest of the world haven't had a major conflict since 1945. Our willingness to maintain our defense posture is at least in part responsible for that.

I don't believe that Trump represents America very well. I think that he is a one termer, but if I were a good prognosticator, he wouldn't have been elected to start with. So I could be wrong again. That being said, I don't think that Trump, TFLY and their fellow travelers represent a majority of Americans. At a guess, I'd say about 30%, plus or minus. There is another group that while on the conservative side tend to vote their pocketbook more than their ideology. Liberals are about 25%. Everybody else is more malleable which tends to make our elections close.

Don

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n7axw wrote:I would have to add that America does deserve credit for maintaining the post war order as long as we have. It is also true that we have made out pretty well in the deal. But Europe and the rest of the world haven't had a major conflict since 1945. Our willingness to maintain our defense posture is at least in part responsible for that.

Sure, pax americana is a thing. A thing that, you'll note, TFLY is opposed to, since he does not believe that America profited enough off of it (and refuses to consider any hint that it might be the leeches at the top of the US' economy's fault).

I don't believe that Trump represents America very well. I think that he is a one termer, but if I were a good prognosticator, he wouldn't have been elected to start with. So I could be wrong again. That being said, I don't think that Trump, TFLY and their fellow travelers represent a majority of Americans. At a guess, I'd say about 30%, plus or minus. There is another group that while on the conservative side tend to vote their pocketbook more than their ideology. Liberals are about 25%. Everybody else is more malleable which tends to make our elections close.

It's pretty well-established that they are a minority (and a dying one at that). Unfortunately, they know that too; thus the increasingly desperate measures they're taking to cling to power for as long as possible.

One thing that will come out of this pandemic is many people will be introduced to themselves for the first time. I mentioned a few times that if I was stranded on a deserted island alone, I'd be good company to myself. If you're already pulling your hair out over the isolation this pandemic has caused, you will never survive being stranded alone on an island. Compared to that, as far as isolation goes, this is a piece of cake. You're probably eating cake right now, aren't you? Well, you won't be getting any cake on a deserted island.

This is an opportunity to stay at home and start or complete all those procrastinations in your life. And without feeling guilty about it. I've started writing a book.

Proper decontamination procedures. Please be safe.

clancy688 wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
This is just utter bull shit. Here is a reliable, apolitical source of information:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

I almost feel bad for pointing this out, but...

worldometer uses the numbers supplied by the John Hopkins University.
covidgraph uses the numbers supplied by the John Hopkins university.

Both websites are displaying exactly the same numbers from exactly the same sources. (:

The only difference is that covidgraph is displaying some curves which worldometer isn't. But the underlying numbers are the same.

Yes, the NUMBERS are the same. The Covidgraph simply displays the number in a manner that is misleading. They even truncated the graph to exaggerate the increases. When numbers of confirmed infections or deaths attributed to the virus per million people are compared, the US is doing much, much better than most Wester European countries.

I have. O doubt that you are smart enough to understand the math. You are simply to dishonest to acknowledge the math.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:When numbers of onfirmed infections or deaths attributed to the virus per million people are compared, the US is doing much, much better than most Wester European countries.

I have. O doubt that you are smart enough to understand the math. You are simply to dishonest to acknowledge the math.

And you're clearly not smart enough to accurately see the limits inherent in the data due to a lack of testing. As we saw in some cities in Italy, there are a number of deaths that aren't counted as covid-related because the people who passed were never, not before and not after death, tested for covid.

Only in countries with comprehensive testing regimes that cover a lot more people than what testing in the US is currently able to can we make accurate statements about the death rate.

So, in other words: The raw data available to us is painting a misleading picture of the state of covid in the US. There are very few countries where we can actually make statements with confidence; South Korea is the prime example here.

The final picture will only emerge in a couple of weeks or months, but we can already say that unless China is massively underreporting things, the US will end up as the single worst outbreak amongst first-world nations, Italy included, both in absolute and relative terms.

The E wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are getting close. Eurotrash are foreigners who presume that they are more enlightened than Americans, or at least American conservatives, and therefore entitled to denigrate Americans. The attitude displays a profound obliviousness and ingratitude for America saving their butts during WW1 and WW2 then during the Cold War. This attitude is accompanied by a presumed right to influence American elections.

There is no end to the amount of gratitude we have for the USA that intervened in WW1 and WW2 and the people who fought in those wars, as well as the leaders who recognized that it is better to turn vanquished foes into strong allies than to leave them beaten and bleeding.

You, TFLY, are not part of either of these categories. You, personally, did not fight in WW2. You, personally, didn't do anything of note. None of the current leadership of the US can make a reasonable claim to the credit the heroes of WW2 and its aftermath deserve; We do owe eternal, personal gratitude to those individuals, not the USA.

Hell, you don't even deserve any credit for being a visible deterrent during the Cold War. That period of history ended 30 years ago; your country changed during that time, and not for the better.

Let me put it to you this way: If you think that what american actions in the 20th Century bought was a "get out of criticism" card, you are badly mistaken. What the US got were allies and friends, and what friends and allies would we be if we weren't willing to intervene and criticise if we see you making stupid decisions and terrible mistakes?

It isn't going to happen. America's economy is not dependant on global trade.

You really believe that, don't you. You can't be both independent of global trade and rich, so which are you going to choose?

If you really believe this, then you should support the US withdrawing from NATO and the alphabet soup of other entangling alliances. Germany would be elated to bear the full costs of your security, either alone or in concert with other European countries. I doubt that Germany will be comfortable depending on France's nuclear umbrella, so you will have to get nukes of your own. This will not endear you to Russia, so you will need even more nukes. Poland is unlikely to feel comfortable with a nuclear armed Germany and no American guarantee of security, so they will go nuclear to. Angela Merkel is already bitching about Trump pressuring her to spend 2% of GDP on the military. Think about how well your welfare state will do if you have to spend 100% of GDP on defense. Perhaps Merkel can intimidate Putin and everyone else with her weapons of mass distraction?

As for America and free trade, should America's access to global markets be contingent on America remaining in NATO and bearing the enormous costs of ensuring freedom of navigation and access to Middle East oil for everyone? If so, then your alleged enlightenment is a fraud. You are no different than the rulers of the mercantile capitalist empires that gave us World Wars. Why the Hell should we think of you as friends?

The E wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:When numbers of onfirmed infections or deaths attributed to the virus per million people are compared, the US is doing much, much better than most Wester European countries.

I have. O doubt that you are smart enough to understand the math. You are simply to dishonest to acknowledge the math.

And you're clearly not smart enough to accurately see the limits inherent in the data due to a lack of testing. As we saw in some cities in Italy, there are a number of deaths that aren't counted as covid-related because the people who passed were never, not before and not after death, tested for covid.

Only in countries with comprehensive testing regimes that cover a lot more people than what testing in the US is currently able to can we make accurate statements about the death rate.

So, in other words: The raw data available to us is painting a misleading picture of the state of covid in the US. There are very few countries where we can actually make statements with confidence; South Korea is the prime example here.

The final picture will only emerge in a couple of weeks or months, but we can already say that unless China is massively underreporting things, the US will end up as the single worst outbreak amongst first-world nations, Italy included, both in absolute and relative terms.

You almost made an intelligent argument, for a change. The US is behind on testing rates. Only 6,000 tests per million people verses almost 9,000 in South Korea. Most of Europe has much higher testing rates. President Trump relied on the bureaucracy at the CDC to develop a test kit. They FUBARed it. Trump recruited private companies to develop a test that is accurate. Now the US is playing catcy up. The numbers on confirmed infections are being driven primarily by increased testing rather than transmission. How much you bet that all seriously ill patients and deceased patients are being tested so we at least Know what the death rate from the Chinavirus is?

The E wrote:

n7axw wrote:I would have to add that America does deserve credit for maintaining the post war order as long as we have. It is also true that we have made out pretty well in the deal. But Europe and the rest of the world haven't had a major conflict since 1945. Our willingness to maintain our defense posture is at least in part responsible for that.

Sure, pax americana is a thing. A thing that, you'll note, TFLY is opposed to, since he does not believe that America profited enough off of it (and refuses to consider any hint that it might be the leeches at the top of the US' economy's fault).

I don't believe that Trump represents America very well. I think that he is a one termer, but if I were a good prognosticator, he wouldn't have been elected to start with. So I could be wrong again. That being said, I don't think that Trump, TFLY and their fellow travelers represent a majority of Americans. At a guess, I'd say about 30%, plus or minus. There is another group that while on the conservative side tend to vote their pocketbook more than their ideology. Liberals are about 25%. Everybody else is more malleable which tends to make our elections close.

It's pretty well-established that they are a minority (and a dying one at that). Unfortunately, they know that too; thus the increasingly desperate measures they're taking to cling to power for as long as possible.

Maybe not dying, but shrinking. The Republican party is going to have to reinvent itself if it is going to be competitive electorally. In fact since 1989 the Republicans have only polled a majority of voters in one national election. That was with G.W. Bush in 2004. The rest of the time they have had to depend on the electoral college for their wins. Unless they broaden their appeal, they will go the way of the Whigs.

Frankly, I hope they do. I, for one, think that a single party system would be a bad thing. But I forget the last positive idea that had a Republican label. Mostly, It's a drumbeat of "be afraid. Be very afraid. Be afraid of liberals. Be afraid of Democrats. Be afraid of ethnic minorities. Be afraid of foreigners." I am sure there are other things that belong on the list. Oh yes be afraid of Muslims.

Finally, when push comes to shove, they have stepped out of mainstream American tradition and reduced themselves to tribalism with this sort of thing.

Don

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