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Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns

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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Daryl   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:25 pm

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To go completely black and white as in your comment, take this scenario.
You are in a state where you can legally carry a gun, when you have a road rage incident. Not certain who started it, but you hit the other driver. Armed and an illegal act of violence. A citizen's committee forms a firing squad and you are gone.
Or even worse, you are accused of this even though you weren't even there. Still gone.

WeberFan wrote:
n7axw wrote:You are probably a bit extreme on this one. I understand your impulse, but can't follow you all the way...

It comes down to how to draw the line and civil rights for a**holes. As for the line, capital punishment for murder and rape. As for civil rights, if we are not scrupulous about civil rights for a**holes, the civil rights of everybody else is also at risk.

As for jails, reserve them for violent offenders. Release non-violent offenders who are a danger to no one. Deal with them by fines, house arrest, etc. Your prison population would really shrink. My impression is that a majority of inmates are nonviolent.

Don

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I'm not a "shades of gray" kind of guy. For me it's pretty cut and dried.

You commit a crime of violence - ANY crime of violence - and are in possession of a firearm, you get a death sentence. And that sentence gets carried out RIGHT BLOODY NOW!

If I had my way, media would be required as a condition of their license to carry the executions live during prime time. And those executions wouldn't be carried out in a way that eliminates "pain and suffering." They'd be carried out via electrocution, hanging, or firing squad. Make the consequences swift, sure, and obvious and you deter the undesired behavior. Make the consequences slow, uncertain, and hidden (as our criminal justice system does currently) and you do anything BUT deter the undesired behavior.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Eyal   » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:36 am

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WeberFan wrote:I'm not a "shades of gray" kind of guy. For me it's pretty cut and dried.

You commit a crime of violence - ANY crime of violence - and are in possession of a firearm, you get a death sentence. And that sentence gets carried out RIGHT BLOODY NOW!


One of the main reasons for civil rights in the judicial system is to ensure that the person you're punishing is in fact guilty of the offence. You're proposing to toss all those safeguards out

If I had my way, media would be required as a condition of their license to carry the executions live during prime time. And those executions wouldn't be carried out in a way that eliminates "pain and suffering." They'd be carried out via electrocution, hanging, or firing squad. Make the consequences swift, sure, and obvious and you deter the undesired behavior. Make the consequences slow, uncertain, and hidden (as our criminal justice system does currently) and you do anything BUT deter the undesired behavior.


The historical record argues against that. Theft used to be a capital crime in England; that didn't prevent pickpockets from plying their trade among the crowds watching the executions.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by The E   » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:47 am

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Yeah, the death sentence is not a reliable deterrent for criminals. It only catches those who make a rational determination that the risk of getting caught outweighs the payoff; people who commit crimes of opportunity or crimes of passion aren't really thinking about the long-term consequences of their actions, and the people who would be deterred are people who would also be deterred by lesser punishments and better prosecution.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:42 pm

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The E wrote:Yeah, the death sentence is not a reliable deterrent for criminals. It only catches those who make a rational determination that the risk of getting caught outweighs the payoff; people who commit crimes of opportunity or crimes of passion aren't really thinking about the long-term consequences of their actions, and the people who would be deterred are people who would also be deterred by lesser punishments and better prosecution.


I've always been torn about the death penalty. Intellectually I tend to oppose it. But my gut puts me right along side Weber Fan. Sooo I'm glad I'm not responsible for making the choices.

One of the worst things about it is how unevenly it is applied. If you are black, you are far more likely to face the death sentence than if you are white, assuming that the offense is comparable.

Don

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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Annachie   » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:16 pm

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I'm definately a pro death penalty person. To me life in prison should be around 2 or 3 years max.

But, as said above, it has to be evenly aplied. It also has to be above ALL doubt.

And none of this 3 strikes for marajuana posession bull crap.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Daryl   » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:56 am

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Overall I'm not a pro death penalty person.
Two reasons come to mind. There have been so many posthumous pardons in the US particularly for poor black men. Secondly doing it demeans the country and turns it into a murderer itself.
Mind you, there is something to be said for an early medieval approach, where the King could just nod to his Master at Arms, who would lead the paedophile murderer out the back, then a dull thunk resounds.

Some alternative history SiFi stories have taken the "Outlaw" philosophy to the extreme. Whereby the perpetrator is informed that they have broken society's laws so society's laws no longer apply to them. People are then told not to stand near or behind them.

Annachie wrote:I'm definately a pro death penalty person. To me life in prison should be around 2 or 3 years max.

But, as said above, it has to be evenly aplied. It also has to be above ALL doubt.

And none of this 3 strikes for marajuana posession bull crap.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:23 pm

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Annachie wrote:I'm definately a pro death penalty person. To me life in prison should be around 2 or 3 years max.

But, as said above, it has to be evenly aplied. It also has to be above ALL doubt.

And none of this 3 strikes for marajuana posession bull crap.


Three strikes was a bit of a boondoggle, wasn't it? It was a classic case of policy coming from the gut rather than thinking things through to the consequences.

Don

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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Michael Everett   » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:15 pm

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Although this case was fortunately not one that ended in the Death Penalty being applied, a corrupt cop (Officer Roger Golubski) was recently proven to have perverted the course of justice, resulting in a 17-year old boy being given 2 life sentences because the boy's mother refused to have sex with Golubski.
When the truth was finally revealed and the boy released (after 23 years!), the officer tried to argue that the family's right to sue him had lapsed as the boy hadn't filed the claim within two years of being convicted...

A lawyer discusses things in this video.

Until corruption in the law-enforcement agencies is fully stamped out, the Death Penalty should be approached with extreme caution.

-Edited due to video mis-linking
Last edited by Michael Everett on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:40 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Although this case was fortunately not one that ended in the Death Penalty being applied, a corrupt cop (Officer Roger Golubski) was recently proven to have perverted the course of justice, resulting in a 17-year old boy being given 2 life sentences because the boy's mother refused to have sex with Golubski.
When the truth was finally revealed and the boy released (after 23 years!), the officer tried to argue that the family's right to sue him had lapsed as the boy hadn't filed the claim within two years of being convicted...

A lawyer discusses things [quote=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKLSNg2wv-E]in this video.


Until corruption in the law-enforcement agencies is fully stamped out, the Death Penalty should be approached with extreme caution.[/quote]

I would think there should be criminal liability here. The cop should try his hand at being locked up for two life sentences.

Corruption amongst the larger law enforcement agecies is a real problem. Out here in the sticks it's not endemic, but also not unknown. My own experience with law enforcement has been positive. Most cops are committed public servants.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Panzer   » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm

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doug941 wrote:I'm not going to make a statement about gun ownership, either pro or con. I will make a statement about authorities notifying the NCIS and their sometimes failure to do so. The shooter at the Sutherland Springs Texas church on Nov 5, 2017 did not have his conviction of domestic assault reported and therefore was able to "legally" buy both firearms and ammo. The agency that failed to report his conviction? The US Air Force after his court martial. If even the Federal government can't get its act straight, don't expect every local agency to either.

As an aside, roughly two thirds of US gun deaths each year are suicides and the vast majority of the rest are criminal on criminal shootings.


That's not the only one. The Marysville-Pilchuck shooter stole the gun he got from a prohibited person. The prohibited person passed a NICS check that he should have failed.

The Parkland school shooter? He should have been a prohibited person. That's a textbook example of the police not arresting someone because "racism." I found a list of police contacts he'd had somewhere, and there were a bunch that should have been DV charges with some felonies thrown in, too. From other reports, he was a sociopath, too, but no one actually bothered to do anything.
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