Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Iowa caucus

The Management is not responsible for the contents of this forum. Enter at your own risk.
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by n7axw   » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:10 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5503
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Dilandu wrote:
n7axw wrote:
On your last point, I agree. But the point really is that Mr. Trump was sabotaging a policy which was judged as important to national security for his personal gain contrary to both law and custom. That is not the same thing as saying that said policy is good or wise which, I am sure, can be argued both ways, depending on one's perspective.


I strongly suspect, that Trump simply realize, that Ukraine have very little real value for US national security. The whole "support" thing is essentially one big denial of reality; USA gain exactly nothing out of here with the exception of worsening relations with Russia (which is, frankly, hardly a worthy goal). It have only symbolic meaning, and Trump seems to not consider the symbolic support as anything significant.

Essentially it boil down on "letter against spirit". Did Trump really broke the letter? Quite probably. Did he broke the spirit? Hardly, considering that the whole thing was spirit-less from the very beginning.

One other thing from this post:The Germans constantly overplayed their hand in that war. I try to get my head around that and the only thing that makes sense is their innate sense of superiority over everybody else. There is no way they were going to win an attritional battle in the east. It was either a knockout punch or lose. But instead of focusing on the knockout punch, they spread themselves over hell's half acre and as the result was inevitable.


Essentially yes. Nazi Germany was an awful mess where everybody have only a very vague idea what exactly are they doing. Hitler himself simply hated to give direct orders, instead preferring to demand that subordinates "feel the intent". It alone caused endless confusion. Considering the constant bickering and rivalry between Nazi bosses and their departments, and the anti-intellectual propaganda, the Germany was essentially falling apart from the very beginning.


The point is not really Ukraine, at least not for me. The point is Trump placing himself above the law which unfortunately has become a pattern for him. Inviting a foreign power to act in a manner that impacts an election is an assault upon the constitution and integrity of the electoral process.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:46 am

TFLYTSNBN
Admiral

Posts: 2221
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Dilandu wrote:
n7axw wrote:
On your last point, I agree. But the point really is that Mr. Trump was sabotaging a policy which was judged as important to national security for his personal gain contrary to both law and custom. That is not the same thing as saying that said policy is good or wise which, I am sure, can be argued both ways, depending on one's perspective.


I strongly suspect, that Trump simply realize, that Ukraine have very little real value for US national security. The whole "support" thing is essentially one big denial of reality; USA gain exactly nothing out of here with the exception of worsening relations with Russia (which is, frankly, hardly a worthy goal). It have only symbolic meaning, and Trump seems to not consider the symbolic support as anything significant.

Essentially it boil down on "letter against spirit". Did Trump really broke the letter? Quite probably. Did he broke the spirit? Hardly, considering that the whole thing was spirit-less from the very beginning.

One other thing from this post:The Germans constantly overplayed their hand in that war. I try to get my head around that and the only thing that makes sense is their innate sense of superiority over everybody else. There is no way they were going to win an attritional battle in the east. It was either a knockout punch or lose. But instead of focusing on the knockout punch, they spread themselves over hell's half acre and as the result was inevitable.


Essentially yes. Nazi Germany was an awful mess where everybody have only a very vague idea what exactly are they doing. Hitler himself simply hated to give direct orders, instead preferring to demand that subordinates "feel the intent". It alone caused endless confusion. Considering the constant bickering and rivalry between Nazi bosses and their departments, and the anti-intellectual propaganda, the Germany was essentially falling apart from the very beginning.



What was the Ukraine policy and why?
After the demise of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union, the policy had been to accept Ukraine being a neutral country. The fact that the Crimean region had a large, ethnic Russian or Russiafied Ukrainian population ensured that there would be continued trade and collaboration with Russia. Given the fact that a large chunk of the USSR's aerospace manufacturing was in Crimea, it would be unreasonable to expect Russia to accept a complete isolationist Ukraine. Some of us remember that Russia abandoned a out 200 SS-18s in Ukraine rather than launch them. Ukrainian neutrality was a good policy.

The Ukraine policy worked well for 3 decades until Hillary convinced Obama that we needed to expand the EU and NATO even further East. The result was Victoria Nuland getting videoed passing out cookies to the demonstrators in Kiev to encourage the coup that the US had incited.

The coup was successful. The new Ukrainian leaders might not quite be Nazis, but they commenced cultural and ethnic cleansing of Russians and Russiafied Ukrainians. Surprise, surprise, surprise, Russia encouraged and supported a revolt in Crimea. It got nasty, needlessly. The only entertainment was an airliner full of Europeans getting shot down. Russia also began giving more military technology to China.

The "Ukraine Policy" that Trump inherited from Hillary and Obama was a fucking disaster. It alienated Russia for no good reason. It also encouraged Turkey to be more militant. The irony is that the US would be constrained from military intervention in Ukraine by Turkey, unless of course Turkey provoked a war with Russia. So much for NATO being a good thing.

Of course the "Ukraine Policy" was encouraged by Joe Biden. Biden actually bragged about how he got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired to protect his son.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:23 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5503
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

I really don't claim to be an authority on Ukraine policy. But I do know that curbing Russian expansionism in the area was judged a security interest by people who should know and who were responsible for making those sorts of decisions, either rightly or wrongly.

As for the Bidens your assertion has been debunked and no actual evidence of wrongdoing found. However if someone has evidence of wrongdoing-- I mean actual evidence and not right wing slander -- let it be brought forth in a court of law where evidence can be presented and either The Biden's name can be cleared or they can be convicted. In the meantime stop playing Mickey Mouse with it.

Finally, TFLY, I think you know that Trump was guilty as charged. He was seeking the help of a foreign country against a political opponent which is an assault on the integrity of our elections. If you don't know it, the Senate certainly does. They essentially stuffed their fingers in their ears and refused to listen to more and short circuited the process. Trumps behavior can't be in anyone's best interest, either Democrat or Republican, if we care at all about the preservation of our democracy.

So why? I can't get my head around it. You Trumpees have lined up behind your guy, come h**l or high water! It's like you are children lined up behind the pied piper! Why?

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:15 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Admiral

Posts: 2221
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

n7axw wrote:I really don't claim to be an authority on Ukraine policy. But I do know that curbing Russian expansionism in the area was judged a security interest by people who should know and who were responsible for making those sorts of decisions, either rightly or wrongly.

As for the Bidens your assertion has been debunked and no actual evidence of wrongdoing found. However if someone has evidence of wrongdoing-- I mean actual evidence and not right wing slander -- let it be brought forth in a court of law where evidence can be presented and either The Biden's name can be cleared or they can be convicted. In the meantime stop playing Mickey Mouse with it.

Finally, TFLY, I think you know that Trump was guilty as charged. He was seeking the help of a foreign country against a political opponent which is an assault on the integrity of our elections. If you don't know it, the Senate certainly does. They essentially stuffed their fingers in their ears and refused to listen to more and short circuited the process. Trumps behavior can't be in anyone's best interest, either Democrat or Republican, if we care at all about the preservation of our democracy.

So why? I can't get my head around it. You Trumpees have lined up behind your guy, come h**l or high water! It's like you are children lined up behind the pied piper! Why?

Don

-


Are you insane, stoned or just profoundly stupid?

What is the land area, population and GDP of modern Russia compared to the land area, population and GDP of the former Soviet Union plus its Warsaw Pact vassal states?

What is the GDP of Russia verses the GDP of the USA or Europe?

How many armored divisions can Russia now command verses how many armored divisions did the Soviet Union and the Warswaw Pact command?

How close to Berlin are Russian armored divisions compared to how close Soviet and Warsaw Pact armored divisions back in 1985?

What is Russia's Total Fertility Rate?

What is the Population Growth Rate of Russia?

What is the birth rate of ethnic Russians verses ethnic and religious minorities (muslims)?

What is the average life expectancy of ethnic Russian men?

Who are the people who are most likely to inherit Russia and Russia's industrial capacity after Russia's population and economy decline to the point where they can no longer defend their territory or themselves?

If you could answer these questions you would understand that Russia is imploding rather than expanding. Russia is on a demographic roller coaster ride through Hell with Freddie Krueger at the controls.

The only factors that make Russia a potential threat to the USA are that they still have a lot of nukes (but not for long because their economy will soon implode along with their population so that they will be unable to maintain much less expand them), and continue to develop advanced military technology that they can not afford to buy in significant numbers but can export. The US should not be provoking Russia by creating needless conflicts to advance the economic and political interests of the EU. The US should absolutely not provoke Russia into launching a nuclear attack against the US out of desperation.

As for Biden and Ukraine? Just take it from Joe:

https://youtu.be/rnIPw_Who7E

President Trump's impeachment attorneys displayed Hunter Biden's banking records.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:10 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5503
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
n7axw wrote:I really don't claim to be an authority on Ukraine policy. But I do know that curbing Russian expansionism in the area was judged a security interest by people who should know and who were responsible for making those sorts of decisions, either rightly or wrongly.

As for the Bidens your assertion has been debunked and no actual evidence of wrongdoing found. However if someone has evidence of wrongdoing-- I mean actual evidence and not right wing slander -- let it be brought forth in a court of law where evidence can be presented and either The Biden's name can be cleared or they can be convicted. In the meantime stop playing Mickey Mouse with it.

Finally, TFLY, I think you know that Trump was guilty as charged. He was seeking the help of a foreign country against a political opponent which is an assault on the integrity of our elections. If you don't know it, the Senate certainly does. They essentially stuffed their fingers in their ears and refused to listen to more and short circuited the process. Trumps behavior can't be in anyone's best interest, either Democrat or Republican, if we care at all about the preservation of our democracy.

So why? I can't get my head around it. You Trumpees have lined up behind your guy, come h**l or high water! It's like you are children lined up behind the pied piper! Why?

Don

-


Are you insane, stoned or just profoundly stupid?

What is the land area, population and GDP of modern Russia compared to the land area, population and GDP of the former Soviet Union plus its Warsaw Pact vassal states?

What is the GDP of Russia verses the GDP of the USA or Europe?

How many armored divisions can Russia now command verses how many armored divisions did the Soviet Union and the Warswaw Pact command?

How close to Berlin are Russian armored divisions compared to how close Soviet and Warsaw Pact armored divisions back in 1985?

What is Russia's Total Fertility Rate?

What is the Population Growth Rate of Russia?

What is the birth rate of ethnic Russians verses ethnic and religious minorities (muslims)?

What is the average life expectancy of ethnic Russian men?

Who are the people who are most likely to inherit Russia and Russia's industrial capacity after Russia's population and economy decline to the point where they can no longer defend their territory or themselves?

If you could answer these questions you would understand that Russia is imploding rather than expanding. Russia is on a demographic roller coaster ride through Hell with Freddie Krueger at the controls.

The only factors that make Russia a potential threat to the USA are that they still have a lot of nukes (but not for long because their economy will soon implode along with their population so that they will be unable to maintain much less expand them), and continue to develop advanced military technology that they can not afford to buy in significant numbers but can export. The US should not be provoking Russia by creating needless conflicts to advance the economic and political interests of the EU. The US should absolutely not provoke Russia into launching a nuclear attack against the US out of desperation.

As for Biden and Ukraine? Just take it from Joe:

https://youtu.be/rnIPw_Who7E

President Trump's impeachment attorneys displayed Hunter Biden's banking records.


Insane, stoned, or profoundly stupid? Aww come on, TFLY, lighten up a bit, I might be all three! Never know! :lol:

Don't think I defended or commented on Ukraine policy.
I did challenge you a bit, though. You seem locked in to that rigid right wing ideology. I'd like you to step away from that and take a look at things from a different perspective. My point of view is center-left, a liberal in basic perspective, but not hard nosed about it. Some lefties seem to get locked in as the hard right. I really don't like ideology at all. Too much risk of getting mushy brained and too frequently substitutes laziness for careful thought and problem solving.

I did go back and review that video... Yeah, that is vintage Joe. But I really don't see evidence of corruption there. I think it takes someone heavily biased against him to start with to get that out of it. The prosecutor involved was known to be corrupt. Burisma had been investigated, but for something that happened before Hunter. I imagine that they thought they were going to burnish their image a bit with Hunter. It gave the appearance of a conflict of interest for the Bidens, something which Hunter admits as he says he wishes he hadn't accepted the job.

I would be a lot more impressed if they had shown Trump's banking records. I bet there is a lot more there.

Look TFLY, I wish we could all sit down at the table and have a positive discussion about our hopes and dreams for America. We might see the problems we face differently and even vehemently disagree on policy. But I bet we would also discover that we have a lot in common.

Don

-
Last edited by n7axw on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by Annachie   » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Annachie
Admiral

Posts: 2916
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:36 pm

Fly, who do you seem to only post things that show Trump's guilt and claim it shows the opposite?

Are you really that stupid?

The prosecutor who Joe is talking about was the one BLOCKING the Burisma investigation.

So, if anything, the VP's actions were to encourage the investigation that you are claiming he was blocking.
If there was any corruption that involved Biden or his son then this encouraged investigation into it.

Of course there was no cortuption involving the Bidens, though there was some with Burisma BEFORE Hunter joined.

In reality you are just highlighting the difference between the two events. One public, above board, with (according to Trumpsters) negative impacts on Biden himself, and with the consensus of allies.
As opposed to secretive, un sanctioned, out of government, and personal gain for Trump.


EVEN SOME GOP SENATORS SAID TRUMP WAS GUILTY!
Sure, those self same politicians have made themselves look utterly stupid with their attemprs to justify their votes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:13 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Admiral

Posts: 2221
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Presume that Hunter Biden is innocent and it was the prosecutor that Joe Biden got fired who was corrupt. A new investigation would confirm that. President Trump never pressured Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. Trump's conflict of interest is presumed.

Us conservatives are not so enamored with Trump as we are offended by a Deep State Bureaucracy similar to Weber's mandarins or the Roman Praetorian Guard. These vermin presume that they have the Constitutional authority to reject a President that they don't like. It all began with the "Russia Hacked the Election" conspiracy theory which was inspired by the Steele dossier prepared by British intelligence. This is utterly corrupt.

I really don't give a shit about President Trump's tax returns unless you have probable cause of a financial crime pertaining to his actions as POTUS. The whole tax return Inquisition is motivated by the knowledge that Trump has a lot of businesses with large gross receipts. The goal is to find some alleged crime that can be inflated into an issue. Rumor has it that foreign governments have been reserving large numbers of rooms at Trump hotel that are then not occupied. This is allegedly bribery by foreigners. Are you so stupid that you presume that Trump has time to check hotel registries? Get a grip on reality.

I want to put all of the Trump conspiracy theories behind us and allow Trump AND Congress to concentrate on running the country. I really want President Trump to have the freedom to negotiate with Putin AND the Chinese regarding the INF treaty and START. IMHO, all three should have somewhat Larger nuclear arsenals structured to deter emerging nuclear powers.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by Annachie   » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:51 pm

Annachie
Admiral

Posts: 2916
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:36 pm

What presume? We know that the prosecutor that the USA got fired was corrupt.
We know he was blocking investigations into Burisma.
We know said investigations were into actions from before Hunter jo8ned them.

No, you are enamoured with Trump. The so called deep state is a fantasy.

Russia did hack the US election, to what level of success we don't know. It's not a conspiricy theory, but a fact acknowledged by just about every body that tracks those sorts of things.

The Steele dossier was not prepared by British Intelligence. It was started by the GOP.

There is some evidence that Trump's tax returns could be crooked. More than enough for probable cause to examine them for either tax fraud or regular fraud or both. The sorts of fraud you don't want committed by the guy who manages a multi-trillion dollar ecconomy.

No, what you want is to put all of Trump's actual crimes and corruption behind you and let him run his corruption unimpeefed because his pretend political positions happen to match yours.

Remember, there were just about enough GOP Senators who said they voted for aquital even though they knew Trump was guilty that if they actually had voted guilty the USA would be swearing in President Pence.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by n7axw   » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:15 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5503
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Annachie wrote:What presume? We know that the prosecutor that the USA got fired was corrupt.
We know he was blocking investigations into Burisma.
We know said investigations were into actions from before Hunter jo8ned them.

No, you are enamoured with Trump. The so called deep state is a fantasy.

Russia did hack the US election, to what level of success we don't know. It's not a conspiricy theory, but a fact acknowledged by just about every body that tracks those sorts of things.

The Steele dossier was not prepared by British Intelligence. It was started by the GOP.

There is some evidence that Trump's tax returns could be crooked. More than enough for probable cause to examine them for either tax fraud or regular fraud or both. The sorts of fraud you don't want committed by the guy who manages a multi-trillion dollar ecconomy.

No, what you want is to put all of Trump's actual crimes and corruption behind you and let him run his corruption unimpeefed because his pretend political positions happen to match yours.

Remember, there were just about enough GOP Senators who said they voted for aquital even though they knew Trump was guilty that if they actually had voted guilty the USA would be swearing in President Pence.


We are seeing what makes these discussions so hard. I have peeked into those right wing websites that seem the course of info... They are cesspools that really have an unsavory smell. TFLY, you need to crawl out. Take a shower and scrub up. You will be surprised how much better the air will smell... :lol:

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Iowa caucus
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:01 pm

Dilandu
Admiral

Posts: 2363
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: Russia

Annachie wrote:
Russia did hack the US election, to what level of success we don't know. It's not a conspiricy theory, but a fact acknowledged by just about every body that tracks those sorts of things.


And what exactly we done? Make public Hillary dirty little secrets? Sorry, defamation is the millenia-old political tactics, and in all preceding millennia's it was generally agreed (including the USA) that if you didn't hide your dirty secrets well enough it is your problem.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top

Return to Politics