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Impeachment now certain

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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:05 pm

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Ezra Klein makes the point about how dangerous a situation the United States is in right now much better than I could..

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1222 ... 49472.html

So last night I was on @allinwithchris and I realized I don't know how to communicate how constitutionally dangerous the Senate situation is right now. We're not arguing over what Trump did. We're arguing over whether Republicans *want to know* what Trump did. Sometimes this whole saga feels like a thought experiment where we keep layering on more and more extreme conditions to see how broken the Republican Party really is.

Okay, but what if Trump releases a call record in which he says Biden's name repeatedly?

Okay, but what if we also have him tell Ukraine and China to investigate Biden on TV?

Okay, but what if we have Republican appointees testify that he did it to the House?

Still nothing? Wild. Okay, how about this:

We get John Bolton, hero of the America right, scourge of liberals, to say that he will testify, under oath, that he personally heard Trump say the aid was contingent on Ukraine going after the Bidens.

John Bolton.

I mean, surely? And the GOP's answer is...they don't want to hear it? That these are unsourced allegations, and their official position is they refuse to hear from the source directly? Even when that source is John $*%&#@# Bolton? The guy they've been to the ramparts to defend?

How can you look at this and say the Republican Party isn't breaking our constitutional design and creating a massive zone of presidential corruption?

It's not that they've gotten all the evidence and they just truly believe Trump didn't do it. It's that they don't want to know, because the more they know, the more undeniable it is that Trump did it.

McConnell's move in all this has been to create such certainty around acquittal that it's tiring for people to pay attention because it's so clear how the story ends. But the story here isn't just impeachment. It's about what Republicans are doing to the political system.

And to be very clear, yes, I have written a book about polarization, and yes, stating the reality of American politics clearly is polarizing. This is the point of the book: party polarization, at this pitch and intensity, will break American politics. amazon.com/Why-Were-Polar…

If Republicans in Congress can't act like members of Congress first and Republicans second then the system's fundamental design stops working. We built a system around the competing incentives of branches, not the competing incentives of parties.


And that really is the central issue here. The country can survive honest disagreements over what the evidence says but when the Republican Party has reached the point where they are openly declaring they refuse to LOOK at the evidence because they don't want to hear what it says before they vote to let Trump off then that's point of no return territory for the function of Congress as a check and balance on the Executive and any last remaining vestige of it's oversight function.

I recall certain posters here confidently declaring when they were trying to justify voting for "president Grab 'em by the pussy" that no matter how corrupt Trump might be it wouldn't be a problem because we had responsible adults in Congress who would be a counterbalance to him.

That argument has died a thousand little deaths over the last three year and the Senate GOP is currently engaged in shoveling dirt over its casket. And then covering it in concrete for good measure just in case it might still be alive and try to dig it's way out of the grave.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:25 pm

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And ffs... Trump's lawyers just argued it wasn't a corrupt quid pro quo because Trump believed his own re-election was "in the nation's best interests".

Which is an implicit admission the goal in withholding the aid was to force an act out of Ukraine that would get him re-elected.

They keep confessing in front of the whole country then daring the Republican party to do anything about it. And of course they won't.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by Annachie   » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:42 pm

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Guess whose lawyers donated to GOP Senators DURING the impeachment procesd.

Guess.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:27 pm

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Annachie wrote:Guess whose lawyers donated to GOP Senators DURING the impeachment procesd.

Guess.


Yeah, I mean I had an astonishingly low opinion of the GOP already when Trump was elected, but even I wasn't entirely convinced at the time that within 3 years the entire party leadership would be signing off on, literally, "The president has unlimited latitude to use his office in ANY way to get re-elected, as long as he thinks getting re-elected is good for the country". Which is the actual fucking argument his lawyers made to the Senate. And 3 years ago I would have at least held out some small sliver of hope that that would be a bridge too far for at least enough of a fraction of the GOP to stand in it's way.

And now it looks like the GOP reaction is going to be "oh yeah, that makes sense, acquit!"

So to recap... Trump has his people arguing:

1. The courts have no jurisdiction over him while he is in office.
2. Law enforcement has no authority to investigate any violation of any law he may break while in office.
3. Congress has no power to investigate his misconduct.
4. Congress cannot impeach and remove him for *anything* because he is allowed to do *anything* as long as he thinks, in his own opinion, that it is the right thing to be doing "for the country". Which in practical terms means literally anything he decides to do and just declare a good thing for the country.

Welcome to King Trump. And this is what he's willing to try while he still faces a re-election (that he's furiously trying to rig)

Imagine how far he'll be willing to go if he actually manages to cheat his way into another term after the GOP let's him get away with all of this.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by smr   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:28 pm

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So Trump is now rigging elections now? Please provide the proof or shut the "hell up" on that allegation. By the way, I am going to vote for Trump in the next election. Thank you for red pilling me!

gcomeau wrote:
Annachie wrote:Guess whose lawyers donated to GOP Senators DURING the impeachment procesd.

Guess.


Yeah, I mean I had an astonishingly low opinion of the GOP already when Trump was elected, but even I wasn't entirely convinced at the time that within 3 years the entire party leadership would be signing off on, literally, "The president has unlimited latitude to use his office in ANY way to get re-elected, as long as he thinks getting re-elected is good for the country". Which is the actual fucking argument his lawyers made to the Senate. And 3 years ago I would have at least held out some small sliver of hope that that would be a bridge too far for at least enough of a fraction of the GOP to stand in it's way.

And now it looks like the GOP reaction is going to be "oh yeah, that makes sense, acquit!"

So to recap... Trump has his people arguing:

1. The courts have no jurisdiction over him while he is in office.
2. Law enforcement has no authority to investigate any violation of any law he may break while in office.
3. Congress has no power to investigate his misconduct.
4. Congress cannot impeach and remove him for *anything* because he is allowed to do *anything* as long as he thinks, in his own opinion, that it is the right thing to be doing "for the country". Which in practical terms means literally anything he decides to do and just declare a good thing for the country.

Welcome to King Trump. And this is what he's willing to try while he still faces a re-election (that he's furiously trying to rig)

Imagine how far he'll be willing to go if he actually manages to cheat his way into another term after the GOP let's him get away with all of this.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:09 pm

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smr wrote:So Trump is now rigging elections now? Please provide the proof or shut the "hell up" on that allegation.


HE ASKED CHINA AND UKRAINE TO DO IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THEY SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIS PROBABLE OPPONENT.


You know, in addition to trying to extort Ukraine into doing it in secret before he got caught.


There, done.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by smr   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:03 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
smr wrote:So Trump is now rigging elections now? Please provide the proof or shut the "hell up" on that allegation.


HE ASKED CHINA AND UKRAINE TO DO IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THEY SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIS PROBABLE OPPONENT.


You know, in addition to trying to extort Ukraine into doing it in secret before he got caught.


There, done.


He is allowed to do that? Please try again!
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by Joat42   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:42 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
smr wrote:So Trump is now rigging elections now? Please provide the proof or shut the "hell up" on that allegation.

HE ASKED CHINA AND UKRAINE TO DO IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THEY SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIS PROBABLE OPPONENT.

You know, in addition to trying to extort Ukraine into doing it in secret before he got caught.

There, done.

smr wrote:He is allowed to do that? Please try again!

Okay, you ask for proof, you get it and you think it's just fine that Trump was trying to influence the election in that way?

Seriously, what's wrong with you??? Are you so such a fanboi of Trump and the GOP that you happily cheer them on while they are wrecking the USA?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:50 pm

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smr wrote:
gcomeau wrote:
HE ASKED CHINA AND UKRAINE TO DO IT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THEY SHOULD INVESTIGATE HIS PROBABLE OPPONENT.


You know, in addition to trying to extort Ukraine into doing it in secret before he got caught.


There, done.


He is allowed to do that? Please try again!


No, actually he isn't. Soliciting foreign interference in US elections is illegal and using his office to do it is an abuse of power.

But as long as the GOP control the Senate and Bill Barr runs DOJ he will never face consequences for it. Which is kind of the crisis we are discussing here at the moment. The total ongoing collapse of the rule of law as the entire Republican party has decided to declare Trump is allowed to do *anything*.

Also, you just asked for evidence he was rigging the election, got the evidence, and your response was essentially "he's allowed to rig elections!"

Geez.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by Annachie   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:24 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
No, actually he isn't. Soliciting foreign interference in US elections is illegal and using his office to do it is an abuse of power.


Specifically:

52 USC 30121 a 2
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