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Impeachment now certain

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Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:58 pm

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The only remaining question is how many GOP Senators can McConnell hold together to oppose removal after the impeachment occurs now that Sondland just completely destroyed all GOP defenses of Trump in his testimony.

1. Yes Trump conditioned the provision of military aid on the announcement of an investigation into Biden. There absolutely was a quid pro quo.
2. No, Trump didn't give a crap about Ukraine or corruption, only getting the *announcement* that Biden/Burisma would be investigated. Even if the investigation itself never happened. A clear compromising of a national security issue in order to get something for his personal political benefit.
3. Yes, Trump was directing all of this. It wasn't some rogue operation . (And pretty much his entire senior admin staff was in on it)

So, Bribery and extortion. Which there is no possible argument is not impeachable since Bribery is one of the only two crimes specifically named in the impeachment article in the constitution along with Treason. And there is no possible way at this point that they're going to be able to pin it on some lower level scapegoat with the mountain of evidence that Trump was in it up to his ears that has already come out.

Next open questions:

* Will Bolton testify to try to save his own backside now that Sondland dragged him in to this? Up until now people have been saying that Bolton was one of the only senior people aware of what was going on who *didn*t get tied up in it.

* What whackadoodle fabricated BS are Trump and Barr going to try to pull out of their backside to try and counter this?

* Will the GOP push Trump to resign to try and save the rest of the party from being dragged down trying to defend him any further? Perhaps citing "medical reasons" or some other excuse...
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:11 pm

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I disagree.

Many people disagree.

Even if there was a quid pro quo, this is trivial compared to the blatant extortion by VP Biden to give his drig addicted son a job he isn't qualified in return for US aid.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:16 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I disagree.

Many people disagree.

Even if there was a quid pro quo, this is trivial compared to the blatant extortion by VP Biden to give his drig addicted son a job he isn't qualified in return for US aid.


Yes, we're all aware Fox News viewers have little clue what is going on, but impeachment is a dead certainty at this point TFLY.

And if you had been listening to the actual testimony you might have seen all the Trump administration officials testifying under oath that those accusations against Biden are completely baseless and lacking any evidence. Unlike the Trump bribery scheme, which has been corroborated by every single person who has come in to testify on it.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by The E   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:35 pm

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gcomeau wrote:And if you had been listening to the actual testimony you might have seen all the Trump administration officials testifying under oath that those accusations against Biden are completely baseless and lacking any evidence. Unlike the Trump bribery scheme, which has been corroborated by every single person who has come in to testify on it.


Not to mention ancillary stupidity like Giuliani and Trump commenting on the proceedings live on twitter and incriminating themselves or others in the process.

Also, according to recent polls, a narrow majority of US citizens does favour impeachment, Trump is still viewed unfavourably by over half of all US citizens... Congress is definitely going to impeach, and whether or not the Senate confirms is most likely going to come down to whether or not McConnell et al see a good chance of staying in power despite, not because of, their support for Trump.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:38 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I disagree.

Many people disagree.

Even if there was a quid pro quo, this is trivial compared to the blatant extortion by VP Biden to give his drig addicted son a job he isn't qualified in return for US aid.


Yes, we're all aware Fox News viewers have little clue what is going on, but impeachment is a dead certainty at this point TFLY.

And if you had been listening to the actual testimony you might have seen all the Trump administration officials testifying under oath that those accusations against Biden are completely baseless and lacking any evidence. Unlike the Trump bribery scheme, which has been corroborated by every single person who has come in to testify on it.



Sondland has changed his testimony.

In addition to reviewing a carefully selected set of notes that are not his, there has been an orchestrated boycott of Sondlands hotels.

Extortion of perjury!
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:52 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
gcomeau wrote:Yes, we're all aware Fox News viewers have little clue what is going on, but impeachment is a dead certainty at this point TFLY.

And if you had been listening to the actual testimony you might have seen all the Trump administration officials testifying under oath that those accusations against Biden are completely baseless and lacking any evidence. Unlike the Trump bribery scheme, which has been corroborated by every single person who has come in to testify on it.



Sondland has changed his testimony.

In addition to reviewing a carefully selected set of notes that are not his, there has been an orchestrated boycott of Sondlands hotels.

Extortion of perjury!


He updated his testimony to AVOID perjury after every other sworn witness exposed that his previous testimony left out rather a lot of things that happened. He tried to cover his own and Trump's backsides by claiming he "didn't recall" a lot of details, that fell apart when half a dozen other sworn witnesses exposed all the things he "forgot", and then his memory was suddenly refreshed and he stopped trying to protect Trump at his own expense and is now mostly hoping to stay out of prison himself.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I disagree.

Many people disagree.

Even if there was a quid pro quo, this is trivial compared to the blatant extortion by VP Biden to give his drig addicted son a job he isn't qualified in return for US aid.
gcomeau wrote:
Yes, we're all aware Fox News viewers have little clue what is going on, but impeachment is a dead certainty at this point TFLY.

And if you had been listening to the actual testimony you might have seen all the Trump administration officials testifying under oath that those accusations against Biden are completely baseless and lacking any evidence. Unlike the Trump bribery scheme, which has been corroborated by every single person who has come in to testify on it.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Sondland has changed his testimony.

In addition to reviewing a carefully selected set of notes that are not his, there has been an orchestrated boycott of Sondlands hotels.

Extortion of perjury!

Here is the link in support of your post, Fly.

Also, Sondland's actual testimony asserted the President stated he wanted nothing from Ukraine. Sondland said he assumed the President wanted a quid pro quo in his opening statement. A quid pro quo that the President received nothing in exchange for giving Zelensky everything Zelensky asked for. So no evidence and all assumption.

Please, Dems, vote to impeach and send this to the Senate! The Turtle can really investigate what the President was asking for.
When this gets investigated, the impeachment vote will look very different.
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by WeberFan   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:18 pm

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IMHO

There was never any doubt that the House of Representatives was going to refer article(s) of impeachment. No doubt whatsoever.

But I also believe that the Senate, as the arbiter of those articles, will not vote 2/3 to remove the President.

Remember, the House is the "sound byte" while the Senate is where anything real will actually happen...

I can see the Presidents lawyer's requesting subpoenas to the DNC for any and all communications with any person related to the Ukraine going back oh... let's see... to the beginning of the Obama administration. I can see the President's lawyers requesting subpoenas for (former) VP Biden's call and correspondence transcripts on the subject of Ukraine. I can see the President's lawyers requesting any interoffice / intraparty communications between any and all House members related to Ukraine. I can see the President's lawyers requesting a subpoena for the "whistleblower." And if the Democrats object, saying that that person must be "protected", then the Republicans can rightly argue that any and all information derived from that complaint MUST be disallowed as poisoned fruit. I do not personally believe that there's a statute protecting the person's anonymity, but there are certainly statutes protecting that person's safety. NOT the same thing.

It is truly unfortunate that we have this ugly sausage-making exercise going on right now. I was one of those people who "supported and defended the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic." But there's no way I could have - in all good conscience - recommended the military as a career for my kids. Those in power - whether it be local, state, or federal, are amoral and suffer from a striking lack of honor. They are not worthy of my defense. Not one.

IMHO...
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:18 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Also, Sondland's actual testimony asserted the President stated he wanted nothing from Ukraine.


Ummm.... yeah. No.

What Sondland testified is that Trump told him that on September 9th.

What would be notable about September 9th Peter? Could the fact that that is *after* the White House was told about the whistleblower report be at all relevent here?

The sequence of events was....

* Hold up aid and withold white House meeting
* Ask for investigations both through intermediaries and DIRECTLY on phone call with Zelensky
*Whistleblower exposes what is going on, everything goes public
*Suddenly, aid is released and Trump yells "I WANT NOTHING! I WANT NOTHING! NO QUID PRO QUO!"

Now, if you were sitting on a jury and someone had been caught by the cops coming out of a bank with a gun and a bag full of money, with video from the bank showing him pointing the gun at the tellers while they filled the bag with cash, and then he turned around, threw the bag of money and the gun back at the bank and yelled "I don't want this money! I want no money! No Robbery! No Robbery!" would you vote to acquit based on that brilliant legal defense?

Sondland said he assumed the President wanted a quid pro quo in his opening statement. A quid pro quo that the President received nothing in exchange for giving Zelensky everything Zelensky asked for. So no evidence and all assumption.


NO EVIDENCE?

He held up the aid against the pleading of EVERY SINGLE AGENCY in his entire adminstration. He provided no justifiable reason. He wouldn't provide the White House visit. He deployed his personal lawyer to Ukraine to dig up the investigations. He got on the phone, talked to the Ukrainian president, and directly and personally responded to Zelensky asking about the aid with "I would like you to do us a favor though" and asked for the investigations HIMSELF then directed him to get in touch with Giuliani. (So much for "I want nothing"). He ordered the diplomats on site to work with Giuliani on the scheme.

We have everything but a signed freaking confession!
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Re: Impeachment now certain
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:56 pm

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No, Sondland did NOT testify to that. He testified he assumed those conversations indicated a quid pro quo. Upon questioning he admitted he had not primary evidence nor hearsay evidence that the President demanded a quid pro quo.

He admitted no one told him the President demanded anything from the Ukrainians. Not the President, not Guiliani, no one. He PRESUMED a quid pro quo existed. That is tantamount to presuming guilt.

He held up aid because Ukraine's previous administration engaged in activity to influence the 2016 US election in favor of Democrats. People were convicted in Ukrainian courts for this interference. Trump wanted to make sure that corruption was not continuing before he signed of on any aid. Btw, he doesn't like handing out foreign aid as a rule. So, it is no wonder he held up aid to the 3rd most corrupt nation in the world pending his concerns being addressed.

Assuming his motivations for holding up aid were corrupt absent evidence is presuming guilt. Sondland presumed just that, guilt. Of course since Dems launched a boycott of his wife's business, his testimony may well be influenced to evolve as it did. I, of course, do NOT presume Sondland's guilt in rephrasing his current testimony as a result of Dem pressure.
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