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Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin

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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by The E   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:23 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
The E wrote:Why are so many of your posts filled with wild generalizations about muslims? What are you, an islamophobe? That would explain much.

Why generalizations? Because every time I cite specifics on any subject you leftists squawk ANECDOTE!! ANECDOTE!! MEANS NOTHING!

How about the Moslem terrorist that stabbed a bunch of people in London yesterday?


How about the 2019 El Paso shooting that seems to have had a white nationalist background?

The existence of islamic terrorism isn't in question. Whether or not it actually is a mortal danger to western society, as you claim, is. Similarly, your claims that muslim immigrants as a whole are, knowingly or not, part of some giant plot to overthrow western society also needs a little more facts behind it than what you've been able to provide thus far.

I’ve been watching ‘Holmes + Holmes’, a TV show filmed in Canada about fixing houses for people after they’ve been fucked over by incompetent and/or larcenous contractors. The last few episodes have featured a couple whose house was in a deplorable condition, mainly because they couldn’t afford to hire proper contractors to do the necessary work. The wife has endometriosis, and her ‘free socialized health care’ costs them over $18,000 a year, leaving them barely enough to live on.


If you're annoyed that people call you out on your overuse of anecdotes, maybe don't use so many of them? Noone, to my knowledge, has ever claimed that socialized health care systems are entirely perfect, but the mere fact that the overwhelming majority of private bankruptcy cases in the US are caused by medical expenses and that fundraising for medicine is literally a billion-dollar market in the US should give you some pause.

Let alone the fact that whether or not an employer chooses to provide medical insurance, and how much it covers, is a major power imbalance factor. Why do you let employers exert that much power over you, willingly?

Why do patients in the U.S. wait three hours for an MRI scan, while patients in Canada wait three months?


Heh. Yeah, that's what happens when MRI machines are rare and people with medical emergencies get priority treatment.

Tell me, how much does an MRI cost?

But, of course, those are all just ANECDOTES!!


Yes, they are. Because you're choosing to ignore the benefits of a system that serves the overwhelming majority well because edge cases where it doesn't exist.

So, to you, specifics are meaningless anecdotes, and non-specifics are meaningless generalizations. How very convenient.


If you can show, through actual evidence and statistics, that punishing millions of people for the criminal acts of a few thousand is justified and an effective way to deal with the problem of extremist terrorism, I'd be very interested.

And you still haven’t addressed the issue of why your posts are full of childish insults, just flung bullshit and more insults to cause a distraction.


If you're getting distracted by my posting style, that's a you problem.

Do you have precise measurements of solar activity spanning the last 700 years? Can you accurately quantify the effects of changes in solar activity on global temperatures? Because, you see, the sun does have some effect on climate.

Today we have satellites that continuously measure solar radiation. We have found that it varies hour by hour, day by day, year by year, and decade by decade. We have overwhelming evidence that it varies over the course of centuries and millennia, as well. We have proven that sunspots are a consistent indicator of solar activity, though not a precise one, and up until the last 70 years, counting sunspots was the best we could do. We have never been able to measure the sun during a period similar to the Maunder Minimum. We can make only rough estimates of how much heat the sun put into the atmosphere before those detailed measurements were possible.

We have determined that solar activity has been increasing since the early 1800s, and the sun is currently hotter than it has been for the last 8,000 years.


If that's true, then what's the effect of solar output trending downward for the past 4 decades?


And you Believe that all self-interest is inherently Eeevil — except the self-interest of those big-government authoritarians you practically worship. I think I see why. You in Europe are accustomed to being ruled by authoritarians, while our ancestors came to this country to be rid of the rule of kings, emperors and despots. Most of us do not want such rule reinstated.


Self-interest is perfectly fine if you're making decisions that only concern you and do not affect others. But we live in a society; A lot of the actions we decide on are affecting others as well, and humans are somewhat bad at keeping a global perspective.
A philosophy that is predicated entirely on the existence of the rational human being, that assumes a priori that people will make individually benefitial decisions and that the sum of those decisions will be benefitial for all is tragically flawed because of the limited perspective we all have.
Similarly, problems like climate change, which require large-scale responses because there is almost nothing that any one individual can do about it, pose intractable problems for such a philosophy: In these situations, if individual self-interest cannot be transformed into collective self-interest because, as you posit, collective self-interest will inevitably go against the interests of some individuals, the individual becomes powerless and beholden to the interests of the few.

Greedy businessmen can affect our lives only in limited ways. Even at their worst, we can stymie them by moving out of town, or to another state.


Unfortunately, we can't move to another planet just yet. Also, why are we ceding ground to the bad actors?

Government, on the other hand, can take our money, our property, our rights, our freedom, and our very lives, wherever we go. Such appalling power MUST be kept under strict control — but the only mechanism we have to control the power of government IS the government. That is why our government was set up with limited power and built-in controls — but those safeguards are being broken down.


Any system can be exploited; if you refuse to change the system to remove the exploits, then that's what you get.

Maybe your government is comprised entirely of virtuous paragons and saints, but ours is full of greedy corrupt self-serving sociopathic narcissists, of which Hillary Clinton and, to a lesser extent, Bill, are prime examples. They already have too much power over our lives; giving them more would be profoundly stupid.


(Aside: I think it's funny that grammatical ambiguities in the english language create the implication that the Clintons, personally, have too much power over your life)

No, the people elected here aren't saints or paragons. There certainly is enough corruption going on to reassure everyone that the people elected to office are still entirely human.
But: Unlike the american system, which forces binary outcomes, ours forces multilateral outcomes, which ensures that no single party can easily dominate the entirety of the political discourse.

More bullshit. Those solar panels, and the converter, were built by private companies seeking profit. They funded their own research into solar power, to make more profit. Almost all of the companies that did get money from the government were run by political hacks that knew nothing of science, engineering or business. They collapsed, and took our money with them.


Again: That's a you problem. Around here, without our government subsidizing research and development of renewable energy sources, it is unlikely that our wind- and solar farms would be as efficient as they are.

Here in the U.S. the government does not dictate what products are sold on the open market by private companies.


Why do you think this isn't the case here?

Other than by prohibiting some products, that is, or imposing fees and regulations that make other products unprofitable.


Oh, so the same "dictates" we use.

Interesting.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Daryl   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:44 am

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The biggest solar panel manufacturers are in China. Much of the initial research was conducted in the University of New South Wales (Sydney Australia), which is a QUANGO (Quasi Autonomous Non Government Organisation), funded in part by the government. Mutually beneficial for them and us.
I was in hospital here last month for heart surgery (by insertion of ablative catheters into veins and arteries). Complications required that I have two CT scans on short notice. Total cost to me for that and the whole procedure, zero.
It appears to me that moderation is the key as in all things. At one extreme you have total government control over everything, as in North Korea and the late East Germany, at the other you have laisse faire business rules allowing the profit motive to be paramount (as the US tends towards). Meanwhile in the majority of developed countries the blended systems seem to work well.
The whole freedom ethos does seem strange to me. I believe that I am quite free. I'm free of worry about not being able to afford medical care, and if something goes disastrously wrong will always have a welfare net to catch me. The idea of having to depend on the generosity of charitable strangers is repugnant. My kids get paid a living wage, and don't have to beg for tips. As to being over governed by an authoritative government, at one point we had five PMs in four years. If they get up themselves, they get moved on.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by The E   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:12 am

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Daryl wrote:T
It appears to me that moderation is the key as in all things. At one extreme you have total government control over everything, as in North Korea and the late East Germany, at the other you have laisse faire business rules allowing the profit motive to be paramount (as the US tends towards). Meanwhile in the majority of developed countries the blended systems seem to work well.


This is true. The trick is to figure out when and where a profit incentive is the easiest way to get good results: For consumer goods, for example, having multiple providers compete for customers generally leads to better results for those customers.
It's the areas where a profit incentive runs counter to the public interest where we need to take a good hard look at whether or not letting "the market" run wild in it makes sense. Health care, for example, is such an area: A Hospital run on for-profit lines will have different incentives from one that isn't. Telecom infrastructure, when run as a for-profit industry, has incentives that run counter to the interests of consumers (aka the whole net neutrality debate); there are many examples especially in the infrastructure business where companies are incentivized to provide worse services at higher costs.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by smr   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:13 am

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I prefer the atlas truck because it's affordable.

The E wrote:
Daryl wrote:T
It appears to me that moderation is the key as in all things. At one extreme you have total government control over everything, as in North Korea and the late East Germany, at the other you have laisse faire business rules allowing the profit motive to be paramount (as the US tends towards). Meanwhile in the majority of developed countries the blended systems seem to work well.


This is true. The trick is to figure out when and where a profit incentive is the easiest way to get good results: For consumer goods, for example, having multiple providers compete for customers generally leads to better results for those customers.
It's the areas where a profit incentive runs counter to the public interest where we need to take a good hard look at whether or not letting "the market" run wild in it makes sense. Health care, for example, is such an area: A Hospital run on for-profit lines will have different incentives from one that isn't. Telecom infrastructure, when run as a for-profit industry, has incentives that run counter to the interests of consumers (aka the whole net neutrality debate); there are many examples especially in the infrastructure business where companies are incentivized to provide worse services at higher costs.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:23 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
The E wrote:Why are so many of your posts filled with wild generalizations about muslims? What are you, an islamophobe? That would explain much.

Why generalizations? Because every time I cite specifics on any subject you leftists squawk ANECDOTE!! ANECDOTE!! MEANS NOTHING!


Because they usually don't?

How about the Moslem terrorist that stabbed a bunch of people in London yesterday?


Good thing he couldn't get a bunch of guns right?

I’ve been watching ‘Holmes + Holmes’, a TV show filmed in Canada about fixing houses for people after they’ve been fucked over by incompetent and/or larcenous contractors. The last few episodes have featured a couple whose house was in a deplorable condition, mainly because they couldn’t afford to hire proper contractors to do the necessary work. The wife has endometriosis, and her ‘free socialized health care’ costs them over $18,000 a year, leaving them barely enough to live on.


I'm going to go right ahead and call pure unadulterated bullshit on that one.

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article ... 12/2379946

"The direct and indirect costs associated with endometriosis: a systematic literature review

...

Estimates of total direct costs ranged from $1109 per patient per year in Canada to $12 118 per patient per year in the USA. Indirect costs of endometriosis ranged from $3314 per patient per year in Austria to $15 737 per patient per year in the USA."




The E wrote:You heard it here first, folks: Climate models that take historical data into account are wrong.

Do you have precise measurements of solar activity spanning the last 700 years? Can you accurately quantify the effects of changes in solar activity on global temperatures? Because, you see, the sun does have some effect on climate.

Today we have satellites that continuously measure solar radiation. We have found that it varies hour by hour, day by day, year by year, and decade by decade. We have overwhelming evidence that it varies over the course of centuries and millennia, as well.


Yes, but not in a way that accounts for the extraordinarily rapid increase in heat energy in the planet in the last century.

You are just throwing out irrelevant trivia to try to cloud the issue.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:13 pm

TFLYTSNBN

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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:46 pm

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Daryl wrote:The biggest solar panel manufacturers are in China.

After government regulations and taxes drove most U.S. manufacturers out of the solar panel business.

gcomeau wrote:Good thing he couldn't get a bunch of guns right?

Too bad none of the people he killed had guns.

gcomeau wrote:I'm going to go right ahead and call pure unadulterated bullshit on that one.

Watch the episodes yourself. Especially the one where she says the drugs that control her symptoms enough to make life bearable are costing them over $1,500 a month. In case you have difficulty with arithmetic, that's $18,000 a year. She did not sound like she was bullshitting Mike.

Why do so many people in countries with 'free socialized health care' choose to pay — a LOT — for private health care?

The E wrote:It's the areas where a profit incentive runs counter to the public interest where we need to take a good hard look at whether or not letting "the market" run wild in it makes sense. Health care, for example, is such an area

Why? Dead people don't need health care, so letting your patients die is bad for business. In private health care, treating patients yields profit. In socialized health care, patients are an inconvenience, and medical treatment is an expense to be minimized.

What we have wound up with in the U.S. is not even a semi-free market. In our bastardized system, the customer is not the patient, but the insurance companies and their management. The patient is not allowed much choice of doctors, hospitals and services. The costs are concealed and dispersed. All your scathing indictments of free-market health care are directed at the parts that are NOT free-market.

The government's place is to regulate the market, not to be the market.

Give the patient a stake in his/her own medical decisions! Let the patients choose the right treatments at the best prices, and you will see costs drop, and services improve. WHY is there a three-month waiting list for MRI scans in Canada?

It's the difference between centralized versus distributed processing. In the beginning, we had centralized processing; one big expensive mainframe computer did everything for everybody. When computers became more affordable, we discovered how much better distributed processing worked. How it was much more effective and efficient for each person to manage their own work, instead of having a remote central authority make all the decisions.

How well would the internet work if it was all run by one gigantic central computer?

Top-down authoritarian central control DOES NOT WORK in a society, an economy, or a market comprised of millions of people with different needs and disparate preferences. And before you say 'But I don't want centralized authoritarian control' — if all the money comes from one source, that source WILL be the authoritarian control. It is inevitable, as is the Gulag for all those who defy the central authority. All that competes with the central authority must be eliminated!

Competition is essential. Properly regulated competition brings out the best products and the most efficient manufacturing processes, leading to the lowest prices. Competition and market selection brought us from subsistence farming to modern technological civilization, but you consider them Eeevil because a few people got 'too rich'.
———————————
Governments can only print money; they can't make it worth anything. They can make it worth nothing.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:23 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
gcomeau wrote:Good thing he couldn't get a bunch of guns right?

Too bad none of the people he killed had guns.


Yeah, like in the US where nobody ever gets shot but bad guys, right? :roll:

gcomeau wrote:I'm going to go right ahead and call pure unadulterated bullshit on that one.

Watch the episodes yourself.


Yes, because clearly "something I heard this lady say on a home renovation show on tv" definitely is the more reliable source of information on the cost of endometriosis treatment than the peer reviewed research paper I linked you to on comparative treatment costs.

Why do so many people in countries with 'free socialized health care' choose to pay — a LOT — for private health care?


"So many people" don't.



The E wrote:It's the areas where a profit incentive runs counter to the public interest where we need to take a good hard look at whether or not letting "the market" run wild in it makes sense. Health care, for example, is such an area

Why?


Take an Econ 101 class, look up price elasticity, and your question shall be answered.

Health care is pretty much literally the textbook example of where free markets don't work well. It is *highly* inelastic. Free markets work well to regulate supply relative to demand and achieve reasonable prices of commodities when demand for those commodities is sufficiently responsive to the price of them.

Health care isn't. Which is how Americans end up being massively price gouged for all things health care related relative to other countries with sane health care policies instead of policies based on treating the free market like some kind of magic incantation that solves all economic problems.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by The E   » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:24 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:Why? Dead people don't need health care, so letting your patients die is bad for business. In private health care, treating patients yields profit. In socialized health care, patients are an inconvenience, and medical treatment is an expense to be minimized.


If you are the profiteering sort, being a health care provider is a good spot to be. You can pretty much set your prices safe in the knowledge that people will pay them, because there are very few people who are willing to endure pain and discomfort in order to save money. If you're operating in an environment where health insurance is optional, even better: You only need to negotiate with the insurers; since uninsured patients have no seat at the table, you can fleece them for all they're worth.
Now, theoretically, an open market would ensure competition and keep providers honest, but how much room is there for additional clinics? How many specialist practitioners can there be in a given area before the market is oversaturated?

I know your counterargument to this is "You can just go elsewhere", but assuming that people in a medical emergency have the necessary leisure and mobility to do that is kinda weird.

Also, your arguments about how "In socialized health care, patients are an inconvenience, and medical treatment is an expense to be minimized." is really more true of the private insurance market the US is currently trying and failing to make work. After all, there's a bunch of stories about people with chronic or complicated illnesses that either can't get health insurance or get dropped by their insurer as being too much of a burden on them. This is something that, quite plainly, can't happen around here, as our public insurance companies are a) required by law to accept everyone, regardless of their medical history and b) required to provide the full range of services as defined by the relevant regs to every one of their subscribers as and when they require them.

Sure, the insurance companies have an incentive to minimize their costs, but the end result of that is not worse service (as that would be quite illegal), but rather them being more hardcore when it comes to negotiating service fees with the health care providers.

What we have wound up with in the U.S. is not even a semi-free market. In our bastardized system, the customer is not the patient, but the insurance companies and their management.


also the patient, in cases where whatever service they require isn't covered by their insurance or when the patient doesn't have insurance, but do continue

The patient is not allowed much choice of doctors, hospitals and services. The costs are concealed and dispersed. All your scathing indictments of free-market health care are directed at the parts that are NOT free-market.


Nah. See, unlike you, I've been living with and benefiting from public health care all my life. Everyone around me has. There are entire categories of problems american adults have due to you being unwilling to contemplate public health care that are entirely unknown to us: Noone I know of was ever forced to decide between jobs based on the health coverage they offer. Noone I know of was ever forced into bankruptcy or had their savings wiped out because the insurance decided to no longer cover some necessary medication. Noone I know of ever had to forego medical care because they lost their job.

All of that, and I am still free to choose which Doctor or Clinic to go to. Entirely free, based purely on the quality of the service they provide.
Oh, and our clinics can run much cleaner and tighter operation because they don't need all the accountants and other admin staff related to collections.

Give the patient a stake in his/her own medical decisions! Let the patients choose the right treatments at the best prices, and you will see costs drop, and services improve.


As I said, I am free to do that. Except I don't have to take price into consideration at all.

WHY is there a three-month waiting list for MRI scans in Canada?


Because MRIs are expensive and require extensive training to use? Because Canada, for whatever reason, has far fewer of these machines than other countries?

Also, it's not as if canadian governments aren't aware of this issue. Oh, and as far as I can tell, the wait lists are only for non-emergency scans. Emergency scans get done immediately when needed.

It's the difference between centralized versus distributed processing. In the beginning, we had centralized processing; one big expensive mainframe computer did everything for everybody. When computers became more affordable, we discovered how much better distributed processing worked. How it was much more effective and efficient for each person to manage their own work, instead of having a remote central authority make all the decisions.


And right now we're moving back to a much more mainframe-y approach, we just call it cloud computing instead.
Also, if you've never worked in IT, "remote central authority" is something we use every day: We just call it a "Domain Controller", because as it turns out, managing fleets of machines is much easier if you can dictate configuration changes from a central authority.

How well would the internet work if it was all run by one gigantic central computer?


You're asking the wrong question. A more fitting question would be "Would the internet work better if ISPs were able to prioritize traffic based on what people pay for", to which the answer is a resounding "No". There is no benefit to you, the consumer, if you're being nickle and dimed for every service you wish to use above and beyond what you have to pay to the service provider directly (i.e. I pay for my Netflix subscription to get UHD and HDR content, I do not pay my ISP extra for the extra traffic to Netflix' servers this generates).

Top-down authoritarian central control DOES NOT WORK in a society, an economy, or a market comprised of millions of people with different needs and disparate preferences.


This is a red herring. You may think that "socialized health care" means "command economy", but it really doesn't.

And before you say 'But I don't want centralized authoritarian control' — if all the money comes from one source, that source WILL be the authoritarian control. It is inevitable, as is the Gulag for all those who defy the central authority. All that competes with the central authority must be eliminated!


Here's a challenge for you: Convince me that you're right. Convince me that our current system does not work, in spite of all the evidence that it does. Convince me that, because of this system, I am less free to make decisions. In other words, show me precisely what freedom you have that I do not.

Competition is essential. Properly regulated competition brings out the best products and the most efficient manufacturing processes, leading to the lowest prices. Competition and market selection brought us from subsistence farming to modern technological civilization, but you consider them Eeevil because a few people got 'too rich'.


Yes, competition is a good thing. The important question is on what axis that competition happens, and what results from the competition: The local general practitioners (that, as stated, I am able to choose freely between) are all competing over quality of service. They do not, can not, compete on pricing.
Now, you show me how that is a bad thing, please.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Daryl   » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:56 am

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No system is perfect, and our two tiered one isn't, but it's pretty good.
Anyone who has a life threatening or time limited (ie: pregnancy) situation gets treated very well in the public system
Others with serious but not lethal situations like hip or knee replacements get treated by the public system but not quickly. Thus people who can afford to (like me) pay private medical insurance premiums.
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