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Please tell me this is a fake news...

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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:12 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
gcomeau wrote:Oh so the founders *didn't* own their ancestors as slaves or enshrine their lesser status as a matter of law in the nation they were founding or commit significant crimes against the Native American population or...?

That's all "innacurate"?



Are you going to start spewing that 3/5s of a person BS?


I think we can just stick with the whole SLAVERY thing and it makes the point all by itself don't you think?
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:01 am

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gcomeau wrote:
Oh so the founders *didn't* own their ancestors as slaves or enshrine their lesser status as a matter of law in the nation they were founding or commit significant crimes against the Native American population or...?

That's all "innacurate"?


Well, lets add some facts in here:

* The majority of African slaves were not "hurled out of African paradize by merciless white slavers", but enslaved by their fellow Africans and THEN sold to white slavers. So, a lot of blame us on the Africans themselves, whose morals of this time rotates around "the good thing is me stealing the cow from other tribe, the bad thing is the otger tribe stealing the cow from me".

* The majority of Native Americans eagerly participated in those "significant crimes" as long as they were aimed toward some other peoples. Again, most of them viewed white colonists as powerful weapon to ally themselves with against their traditional rivals. At least in the initial period, it was mostly Native Americans nations massacring each other with some Europeans assiastance.

So, when we start to dig into history, it is rarely black and white... mostly dark gray and somewhat lighter gray.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by The E   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:02 am

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Dilandu wrote:* The majority of African slaves were not "hurled out of African paradize by merciless white slavers", but enslaved by their fellow Africans and THEN sold to white slavers. So, a lot of blame us on the Africans themselves, whose morals of this time rotates around "the good thing is me stealing the cow from other tribe, the bad thing is the otger tribe stealing the cow from me".


Slavers created economic incentives for african chiefs to sell people into slavery. While some blame can be laid at their feet, the majority of it still firmly rests with the people paying the money.
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by Imaginos1892   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:31 am

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The E wrote:Slavers created economic incentives for african chiefs to sell people into slavery. While some blame can be laid at their feet, the majority of it still firmly rests with the people paying the money.

Which, up until the 17th century, were primarily Arabs in Northern Africa and the Middle East. Britain's North American colonies were latecomers to a trade that had been going on for millennia.

Most Native American tribes took slaves from other tribes. The Incas, Aztecs, Toltecs and Mayans all practiced slavery.

Slavery goes back at least 20,000 years. There is no reason to doubt that it goes back 100,000 years or more. The idea that it might be wrong is a very recent development, and slavery still persists across much of the world.

SO — don't go trying to paint the Southeastern United States as somehow uniquely guilty. They did not invent slavery, nor did they add anything new. Everybody's ancestors are equally guilty, some more recently than others.
———————————
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do remember history are doomed to watch everybody else repeat it.
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:11 am

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The E wrote:
Slavers created economic incentives for african chiefs to sell people into slavery. While some blame can be laid at their feet, the majority of it still firmly rests with the people paying the money.


I do not deny that. What I wanted to demonstrate, is that history is complex. Simplified answers could not be accurate, as well as just one side rarely could take all blame.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by The E   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:27 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:SO — don't go trying to paint the Southeastern United States as somehow uniquely guilty. They did not invent slavery, nor did they add anything new. Everybody's ancestors are equally guilty, some more recently than others.


Oh, but they are. On the one hand, the US declared itself to be a country of free men, bound to no crown. On the other, slavery was freely tolerated and enforced in the american South. There is a level of hypocrisy at play that, at least as far as I am aware, is kind of unique.
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by Dilandu   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:37 am

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The E wrote:
Oh, but they are. On the one hand, the US declared itself to be a country of free men, bound to no crown. On the other, slavery was freely tolerated and enforced in the american South. There is a level of hypocrisy at play that, at least as far as I am aware, is kind of unique.


“As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”


(c)
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by noblehunter   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:30 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:SO — don't go trying to paint the Southeastern United States as somehow uniquely guilty. They did not invent slavery, nor did they add anything new. Everybody's ancestors are equally guilty, some more recently than others.


I take it you're unaware of the difference between the chattel slavery of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and other traditions of slavery? All slavery is bad but some slavery is worse than others.

Though it's technically true that the US didn't invent anything with regards to the slave trade but that's because they were a minor player compared to Brazil and the Caribbean.
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Re: Please tell me this is a fake news...
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:07 am

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The E wrote:
Dilandu wrote:* The majority of African slaves were not "hurled out of African paradize by merciless white slavers", but enslaved by their fellow Africans and THEN sold to white slavers. So, a lot of blame us on the Africans themselves, whose morals of this time rotates around "the good thing is me stealing the cow from other tribe, the bad thing is the otger tribe stealing the cow from me".


Slavers created economic incentives for african chiefs to sell people into slavery. While some blame can be laid at their feet, the majority of it still firmly rests with the people paying the money.



You mean the Arab slavers?
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