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Knives, Knives, Knives

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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:25 am

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Joat42 wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:My argument is quite meaningful. The fact that knife crime in London has become so alarming illustrates the point that when guns are unavailable, other weapons can and will be substituted for guns with lethal results.

Now popping pop corn.

No, your argument isn't meaningful because anyone with a brain understands that if someone is out to harm people they will lay their hands on the most convenient weapon at hand that will do the job.

Perhaps it wouldn't be so alarming to an US citizen if it had been gun crime on the rise instead.


You just made my point. People who desire to kill will use whatever weapon is available. The reputation that guns have for being deadly weapons obscures the fact that except for damage to bones, a wound from a knife is just as deadly as wound from a bullet. The vast majority of gun homicides are committed at knife fighting range.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:41 am

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Annachie wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:https://news.yahoo.com/man-20s-stabbed-death-london-hours-theresa-mays-knife-crime-summit-075309453.html


Let me give PM May a hint.

It isn't the knives, stupid.
You're right.

It isn't.

It would also be a shit tonne worse if the UK had the same access to guns as the USA.


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It'd be a shit ton worse for any country if they had the same access to guns. The point is this . . . once guns are let out of the bag, it is far easier to shit out the Empire State Building than to put them back in, in a timely, fair and safe manner, ensuring me that you'll collect the crazy idiot's guns who live on my street as soon as you collect mine. And also ensure me that the ease of "reacquiring" said guns is completely eliminated. Being killed with an illegal gun is just as fatal as a legal one.

Funny how knives are limited to blade length. A certain length may not kill you, but eyes are subject to irreparable damage, though I suppose it's better to lose an eye than a life. It is also worth noting how brass knuckles have become an area of stealth. There is a variety of spinner toy that is actually a set of brass knuckles. There is a popular keychain that quickly converts to a pair of brass knuckles.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:14 pm

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cthia wrote:







It'd be a shit ton worse for any country if they had the same access to guns. The point is this . . . once guns are let out of the bag, it is far easier to shit out the Empire State Building than to put them back in, in a timely, fair and safe manner, ensuring me that you'll collect the crazy idiot's guns who live on my street as soon as you collect mine. And also ensure me that the ease of "reacquiring" said guns is completely eliminated. Being killed with an illegal gun is just as fatal as a legal one.

Funny how knives are limited to blade length. A certain length may not kill you, but eyes are subject to irreparable damage, though I suppose it's better to lose an eye than a life. It is also worth noting how brass knuckles have become an area of stealth. There is a variety of spinner toy that is actually a set of brass knuckles. There is a popular keychain that quickly converts to a pair of brass knuckles.



I grew up in a community where lots of men had gun racks in their pickups. They frequently drove around with a rifle or a shotgun, or both, in their gun rack. Nobody bothered to lock the doors on their pickup when they parked. In even more rural communities, teenagers often had guns in their pickups when they went to school so that they could hunt birds, deer or elk on the way home. Gun theft was rare and homicides were nearly unheard of. The homicide rate for the State was comparable to gun free European homicide rates.

I know two guys who took a 30-06, bolt action rifle to school so as to mount a scope during shop class on the day that VP Hubert Humphray was visiting the school for a mock convention. They openly carried the rifle from the parking lot without bothering with a case. When the Sheriffs deputy who was in charge of security asked the principle if the guys with the gun were students, he assurred him that they were "good boys."

If a society is peaceful, it will be peaceful with guns.

If a society is violent, it will be violent without guns.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:21 pm

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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:24 pm

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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by gcomeau   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:57 am

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It's like you have some kind of debate Tourette's syndrome that compels you to blurt out over and over, in various ways, "Look! An example from a country with stricter gun control than the US of murders happening at a far lower rate and far lower lethality than the US!" then thinking you somehow scored points.

It's just sad...
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by The E   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:25 am

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gcomeau wrote:It's like you have some kind of debate Tourette's syndrome that compels you to blurt out over and over, in various ways, "Look! An example from a country with stricter gun control than the US of murders happening at a far lower rate and far lower lethality than the US!" then thinking you somehow scored points.

It's just sad...


What TFLY is either ignorant of or actively ignoring is that crime sprees like the London knifing incidents do not happen in a vacuum, and have little to do with the weapons laws in place.

In this instance, it is necessary to remember that successive tory governments have, in the name of austerity and the oh-so-beloved-by-americans minarchism, cut the budgets of social services (including the police) to the barest of bones. As a result, the weapons laws that exist aren't being enforced, and more importantly, people have lost trust in law enforcement in general. Carrying a knife, right now, is relatively risk-free -- both for would-be assailants and their victims looking to protect themselves. And then the mechanisms that we've seen in America will engage: People feel threatened, or feel like threatening others, and they'll use the tools available to them. In the US, that takes the shape of a handgun, in the UK, it's a knife.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:34 pm

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The E wrote:In this instance, it is necessary to remember that successive tory governments have, in the name of austerity and the oh-so-beloved-by-americans minarchism, cut the budgets of social services (including the police) to the barest of bones.

True. Every time the Tories have got in after a Labour Government, they are saddled with far more debt than would be normally expected, meaning that they have to redirect a lot of income to meet the resultant charges, thus reducing the amount available for normal public usage.

One notable governmental transfer had the former Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer leaving a note on his desk for his Tory replacement that said "I'm afraid there is no money."

While Labour love extending the government reach, they have a slight problem in that they cannot get to grips with the fact that taxation has limits. Two-Jags (John Prescott) proved this quite memorably by raiding retirement funds to allow for extra spending, thus causing a massive drop in private pensions and thus increasing the demand on the public purse. The Gold Reserve sell-off was another example of how to screw up by the numbers.

I am not saying Labour are totally to blame, the Tories have made quite a few mis-steps of their own regarding finances (some of which have been quite excruciating to watch). However, if the country is analogous to a ship, the Tories keep finding that while they were ashore, the bilge pumps have been stripped to provide parts for the jacuzzis and the hull seams are leaking badly due to stormy weather.

Edited once to correct quote from Liam Byrn to David Laws
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:35 pm

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The E wrote:
gcomeau wrote:It's like you have some kind of debate Tourette's syndrome that compels you to blurt out over and over, in various ways, "Look! An example from a country with stricter gun control than the US of murders happening at a far lower rate and far lower lethality than the US!" then thinking you somehow scored points.

It's just sad...


What TFLY is either ignorant of or actively ignoring is that crime sprees like the London knifing incidents do not happen in a vacuum, and have little to do with the weapons laws in place.

In this instance, it is necessary to remember that successive tory governments have, in the name of austerity and the oh-so-beloved-by-americans minarchism, cut the budgets of social services (including the police) to the barest of bones. As a result, the weapons laws that exist aren't being enforced, and more importantly, people have lost trust in law enforcement in general. Carrying a knife, right now, is relatively risk-free -- both for would-be assailants and their victims looking to protect themselves. And then the mechanisms that we've seen in America will engage: People feel threatened, or feel like threatening others, and they'll use the tools available to them. In the US, that takes the shape of a handgun, in the UK, it's a knife.


Amazing!

You are actually getting closer to understanding my point.

Shooting incidents in America don't happen in a vacum any more than knifing incidents in London. The Extreme variation in homicide rates between different ethnic groups and geographical locations is a huge hint that other factors besides gun ownership are involved. The fact that more restrictive gun control laws are closely correllated with higher homicide rates and a higher percentage of homicides committed with firearms confirms this.

I do not know enough about Great Britain's internal politics to offer an opinion on the budgetary priorities of the political parties. But by commenting on how effective polide are in making arrests, and making arrests for actual homicides and assaults is more relevant than making arrests simply for possessing a knife, you are getting close.

I have out of date data for arrest rates and clearance rates in Great Britain and other European countries that were enlightening for me. How about you apply your internet acumen to finding more up to date data to compare to the United States?
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by The E   » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:52 pm

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Again, quite a simplistic view, that. You are claiming austerity to be a necessity, when in actuality it is anything but. After all, some more taxation on the finance industry wouldn't have hurt anyone, really.

Or, you know, trying to shift the UK economy to something more reliable than being a tax haven, or making policies that benefit the whe of the country and not just the City.

Don't get me wrong, Labour do have their share of problems (Blair and Gordon being what they were), but compared to the utter disasters that were Thatcher, Cameron and May, they at least have the excuse of not leaving Britain in a complete shambles.
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