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Knives, Knives, Knives

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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:02 am

TFLYTSNBN
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edgeworthy wrote:Wrong again TFLYTSNBN as your own source clearly says ...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2018
The Homicide rate is calculated by all deaths consider to be violent and suspicious by the Police, not the downward revisions you seem to think apply. The British Murder rate for 2018 was measured using the figure of 730 murders recorded regardless of whether there was actually, an arrest, prosecution or conviction; its still a homicide even if no one actually gets caught, or the offence is later judged to be Manslaughter.
"When the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place. The offence would be reclassified on the Homicide Index as “no longer recorded” but may remain in the main police recorded crime collection as a homicide."

The 2018 figure being reduced to 726 on the conclusion that 4 instances were not actually homicides.
Are you somehow getting confused by how the Office of National Statistics is defining a suspect?
(Which is not the same thing, see section 10 which records the differences between cases where there was a suspect and where one was not. In 207 cases no suspect was charged, in 523 cases a suspect(s)was charged, this is NOT the total number of initially recorded homicides, 730, used to calculate the 12 per 1,000,000)

As the ONS report cautions care should be taken in analysing the figures for statistical anomalies. For example the 2003 figure rose sharply due to the inclusion of the 173 victims of a serial killer not being officially recorded until that year, likewise the 2017 figure was increased by 89 deaths that in-fact occurred in 1989.
The 1.2 per 100,000 figure is accurate for ALL the Homicides that occurred in 2018. Not just those that were solved, or had a suspect, arrest, prosecution or conviction. The ONS source clearly says this, did you read it?

There is even a caveat that a Homicide does not require violence to be considered as such, for example the inclusion of 58 migrants who suffocated in the back of a lorry in the official homicide rate, or 20 people who drowned in a flood due to criminal negligence.
(Does this not suggest a broader definition?)

Using British criteria for counting criminal homicides, Chicago had only about 50 homicides in 2018 rather than 590.
Problem solved.

Seriously the Police in Chicago only manage to solve 8% of homicides, compared to the British rate of 72%!
(No Law Enforcement agency can be that bad?)

Edit: Just to be clear again, the 730 (719 with 10 later excluded, for 2017) Homicides figure is that recorded by the British Police, and reported by such in the official government archives. In 2017 the FBI listed 17,284 Homicides ... this is a comparison of crimes considered to be murders listed by the respective Law Enforcement Agencies!
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... ges/murder
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2017



Yes, Police in Chicago rarely identify the perpetrator or pepetrators of homicides. I will refer you to this HeyJackass website because the FBI declines to release data on arrest rates for individual jurisdictions except through the Supplementsry Homicide Reports which are rather cumbersome.


https://heyjackass.com/home/


If you want to dispute the accuracy or veracity of this private group, you can obtain copies of the Supplementary Homicide Reports by contacting the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting unit here:

crimestatsinfo@fbi.gov

They can email you the data for the City of Chicago. For data on the entire US, they would have to email you a computer disc.


If you do not get a timely response, call
(304)-625-3535
Ask to talk to Lauretta.


The FBI actively discourages citizens and researchers from doing any comparative analysis that might cause citizens to question the competence of the cops.

While you imagine that you are schooling me on criminology, why not take note of the enormous disparity in the homicide rates for young children (11 and under) in the US and Great Britain. Since 80% of young children that are murdered in the US are beaten, bludgeoned, burned, strangled or stabbed to death, the problem is not guns. May be you think that murdered children don't matter unless they are shot to death?
Last edited by TFLYTSNBN on Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:04 am

TFLYTSNBN
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Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

edgeworthy wrote:Wrong again TFLYTSNBN as your own source clearly says ...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2018
The Homicide rate is calculated by all deaths consider to be violent and suspicious by the Police, not the downward revisions you seem to think apply. The British Murder rate for 2018 was measured using the figure of 730 murders recorded regardless of whether there was actually, an arrest, prosecution or conviction; its still a homicide even if no one actually gets caught, or the offence is later judged to be Manslaughter.
"When the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place. The offence would be reclassified on the Homicide Index as “no longer recorded” but may remain in the main police recorded crime collection as a homicide."

The 2018 figure being reduced to 726 on the conclusion that 4 instances were not actually homicides.
Are you somehow getting confused by how the Office of National Statistics is defining a suspect?
(Which is not the same thing, see section 10 which records the differences between cases where there was a suspect and where one was not. In 207 cases no suspect was charged, in 523 cases a suspect(s)was charged, this is NOT the total number of initially recorded homicides, 730, used to calculate the 12 per 1,000,000)

As the ONS report cautions care should be taken in analysing the figures for statistical anomalies. For example the 2003 figure rose sharply due to the inclusion of the 173 victims of a serial killer not being officially recorded until that year, likewise the 2017 figure was increased by 89 deaths that in-fact occurred in 1989.
The 1.2 per 100,000 figure is accurate for ALL the Homicides that occurred in 2018. Not just those that were solved, or had a suspect, arrest, prosecution or conviction. The ONS source clearly says this, did you read it?

There is even a caveat that a Homicide does not require violence to be considered as such, for example the inclusion of 58 migrants who suffocated in the back of a lorry in the official homicide rate, or 20 people who drowned in a flood due to criminal negligence.
(Does this not suggest a broader definition?)

Using British criteria for counting criminal homicides, Chicago had only about 50 homicides in 2018 rather than 590.
Problem solved.

Seriously the Police in Chicago only manage to solve 8% of homicides, compared to the British rate of 72%!
(No Law Enforcement agency can be that bad?)

Edit: Just to be clear again, the 730 (719 with 10 later excluded, for 2017) Homicides figure is that recorded by the British Police, and reported by such in the official government archives. In 2017 the FBI listed 17,284 Homicides ... this is a comparison of crimes considered to be murders listed by the respective Law Enforcement Agencies!
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... ges/murder
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2017



True.

However; what number gets cited for comparison to the US.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:14 am

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Daryl wrote:I did realise that you were deliberately trolling, but have decided to respond.
A decent and widely loved woman was shot by US police and died. Here family and friends have to cope with that loss and life time grief, yet you discuss how she would have looked in her pajamas? I know what you were seeking to do, but the fact that your mind even ventured there is not something to be proud of.
This case does however prove that US gun insanity is Australian's business. If you lot were as all other developed countries the Australian lady would still be alive.




I confess that I was intentionally jerking your chain just to provoke an indignant response. It was rude, even by my standards precisely because a decent and widely loved woman was killed senselessly. Her only offense was calling the police to report a possible rape in progress and she gets killed by these trigger happy morons (Harrity didnt pull the trigger only because he couldn't bring his gun to bear).
As crude as my jest is, my point that the probable response of a normal nan to seeing Ms Damond in her pajamas would not have been flight or fight.

My question for you is why should Americans reliquish their guns and rely on police when American police make an arrest in barely half of homicides, conviction rates for murder is about 70% which means only 35% of murderers get convicted, and many police are a threat to the public because they have been commissioned by the gun control lobby to be bat shit crazy paranoid?

Rather than meddle in US gun politics, why not just stay on your own continent?
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:34 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Rather than meddle in US gun politics, why not just stay on your own continent?

...this.
This comment.
This is indeed a killer comment, Tfly.

It just killed the last traces of respect I had for you.
Well played, fly.
Well played.
Your hypocrisy is outstanding, given how much you've been ranting on about the death toll in the UK which is not on the same continent that you are.
So... rather than meddle in UK knife politics, why not just stay on your own continent?
:twisted:
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by Daryl   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:35 am

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You see fly that in regard to -
My question for you is why should Americans reliquish their guns and rely on police when American police make an arrest in barely half of homicides, conviction rates for murder is about 70% which means only 35% of murderers get convicted, and many police are a threat to the public because they have been commissioned by the gun control lobby to be bat shit crazy paranoid?

Rather than meddle in US gun politics, why not just stay on your own continent?


I don't regard myself as meddling as I have zero impact on the US political scene. I do have twin aims.
The first one is reasonable and I believe sensible, in that I do try to understand the American mind set. This forum is a good place to communicate with people who have very different mind sets to me, and learn from them (without being shot). On this topic I probably would also carry a gun, if I for some reason had to stay in some parts of the US for the reasons you outline. Be assured I would know what I was doing with it as well.
The second less noble reason is that I enjoy tweaking some people's tails, and some do bite better than others. Strangely enough I can now understand and relate better to you than some on here. Smr and Imaginos are still so far out of my sphere that I just can't relate at times.

The whole Trump phenomenon still escapes me, yet quite a few Australians support him on our similar forums. How Christians can strongly support someone who cheated on his first wife with his second, cheated on his second wife with his third, and then cheated on his third with porn stars and Playboy models escapes me. His proven 10,000 plus lies, along with multiple bankruptcies that he didn't lose his own money in, all attest to an undesirable. Yet the downtrodden almost worship this philandering billionaire?
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:36 am

TFLYTSNBN
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Daryl wrote:You see fly that in regard to -
My question for you is why should Americans reliquish their guns and rely on police when American police make an arrest in barely half of homicides, conviction rates for murder is about 70% which means only 35% of murderers get convicted, and many police are a threat to the public because they have been commissioned by the gun control lobby to be bat shit crazy paranoid?

Rather than meddle in US gun politics, why not just stay on your own continent?


I don't regard myself as meddling as I have zero impact on the US political scene. I do have twin aims.
The first one is reasonable and I believe sensible, in that I do try to understand the American mind set. This forum is a good place to communicate with people who have very different mind sets to me, and learn from them (without being shot). On this topic I probably would also carry a gun, if I for some reason had to stay in some parts of the US for the reasons you outline. Be assured I would know what I was doing with it as well.
The second less noble reason is that I enjoy tweaking some people's tails, and some do bite better than others. Strangely enough I can now understand and relate better to you than some on here. Smr and Imaginos are still so far out of my sphere that I just can't relate at times.

The whole Trump phenomenon still escapes me, yet quite a few Australians support him on our similar forums. How Christians can strongly support someone who cheated on his first wife with his second, cheated on his second wife with his third, and then cheated on his third with porn stars and Playboy models escapes me. His proven 10,000 plus lies, along with multiple bankruptcies that he didn't lose his own money in, all attest to an undesirable. Yet the downtrodden almost worship this philandering billionaire?


Well I googled "London Knife Crime" again with the intention of posting the latest carnage just to piss off everyone and the only hits within the last 24 hours were commentary rather than yet another knife murder. I am actually not disapointed because while every knife murder in London validates my point, it also is the taking of a human life.

Some of the commentary on knife crime is interesting while some is hillarious. The proposals for blunted blades and even installing GPS trackers in knives are ludicrous. That blunted blade is not going to save anyone from a vigous thrust to the abdomen. A few minutes with a bench grinder will sharpen that point. A common screw driver will can be as lethal as any knife. However; the acknowledgement that knives can be employed for domestic homicide is getting close to acknowledging the reality that the problem is the domestic abuser not the knife, or in the US, the gun.

The proposals to regulate knives are as ludicrous as my rhetorical response to the murder of my brother that we require owners of Dodge vans to safely store their vehicles unfueled and in a locked garage. We might even impose legal limits on the capacity of fuel tanks so that mass murderers can not kill to many people before they run out of gas?

My offering absurd suggestions is an attempt to inspire critical thinking. The sparsely populated (100,000 people) rural County that I reside in has had an astonishing number of mothers who have been murdered then dumped in rural areas in recent years. One murdering mother even ejected her daughter from a moving car which resulted in a lethal impact with a guard rail at about 50 mph while her grand daughter was in the car. No murder charges have been filed because there is insuffecient evidence that the victim was forcibly ejected from the vehicle, but the circumstances and subsequent behavior of the murdering mother precludes any innocent explaination. They have also found two feet floating in the river at different times and locations that presumably came from the same person who is probably female because one of the feet was wearing a woman's shoe. Either some unidentified woman has been murdered and the carcass parted out or some woman is running around with no feet.

My community missed the metaphorical bullet last summer when the murderer of a mother missed the Ferry and had to dump the carcass of his murdered wife just acroos the river which is the County boundary. The murderer of this woman is (was) her estranged husband and a scum sucking whore of an attorney who had the decency to commit suicide when the police were trying to arrest him.

The most recent tragedy is a mother and her 3 year old son who were abducted (the accussed is the boy's father who lives within rifle range of my property) and their carcasses dumped in another location a few kilometers in the opposite direction from my property. This is the first of the recent cases in which the murder weapon was a gun! I actually recognize the perp as someone whom I had an encounter with when I caught him tresspassing on my property to hunt. He was an ass hole who suggested that I was stupid to confront hunters who were armed with rifles (most common calibers employed are 30-06 or .338 Winchester Magnum which is about 4x more powerfull than an AR-15). I held up a .50 BMG cartridge and told him that he was stupid to be belligerant with a landowner who might have one of his kids watching him from a location up to a mile away through a telescopic sight mounted on a .50 BMG rifle. I didnt tell him that I was holding my .45 pistol below the upper edge of the car window, poised to shoot him through the car door if histhreats escalated. I also recognise the accussed murderer of the mother and child as a member of the local Pythian "Castle" and possibly an investor in my tenant's bootleg marijunna grow.

Perhaps you can understand why I carry a gun?

In an effort to dramitize the tragic, grossly disproportionate carnage that my community is sufferring, I have suggested that the County enact an ordinance against dumping. Murderers of mothers and children should be forbidden to dump the carcasses of their victims in remote rural areas or rivers. This dumping not only causes water pollution, it costs the Sheriff and his Deputies an enornous amount of effort to find and retrieve the carcasses which can be decompossing when they are finally located. The County should require all murderers of mothers and children to deposit the carcasses of their victims on the courthouse steps, preferably in only one piece. This will enable the victims to be located and recovered at minimal cost to the tax payers. The Sheriff would have the option of allowing the carcasees to ripen for a few weeks before removing them so that the imbecile judges and ignorant juries can have a proper appreciation of these tragic crimes.


I continue to await some of you foreigners may be comprehending my challenge to explain why young children (under 12) in the US are far more likely to be murdered than young children in other countries when the vast majority of young children who are murdered in the US are NOT killed with guns. Once you can provide a cogent answer to this question, we will have a foundation for rational discussion.


As for your confusion about why consevatives, especially religious consevatives, support Trump, the reasoning is very simple. When we conservatives support a candidate who adheres to our moral principals, they are viciously villified. This villification is often absurd. (An example is a FOX News host who very publicly took notice of the fact that Track Palin was born just a little more than 8 months after Todd Palin and Sarah Palin married. Of course this criticism exhibits ignorance of reproductive biology and human gestation varience, by why argue with idiots? Oh My God! They might have had sex before they were married!!) Since liberals are so vicious towards conservative candidates, consevatives went out and found themselves a pit bull of a candidate. Yes, he not only pisses and shits on the carpet, he humps the legs of FOX News infobabes. However; the nasty personal attacks do not affect him because he is accustomed to them.

You obviously do not understand how corporate structure and bankruptcy laws function in the US.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:05 pm

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Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

edgeworthy wrote:Wrong again TFLYTSNBN as your own source clearly says ...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2018
The Homicide rate is calculated by all deaths consider to be violent and suspicious by the Police, not the downward revisions you seem to think apply. The British Murder rate for 2018 was measured using the figure of 730 murders recorded regardless of whether there was actually, an arrest, prosecution or conviction; its still a homicide even if no one actually gets caught, or the offence is later judged to be Manslaughter.
"When the police initially record an offence as a homicide it remains classified as such unless the police or courts decide that a lesser offence, or no offence, took place. The offence would be reclassified on the Homicide Index as “no longer recorded” but may remain in the main police recorded crime collection as a homicide."

The 2018 figure being reduced to 726 on the conclusion that 4 instances were not actually homicides.
Are you somehow getting confused by how the Office of National Statistics is defining a suspect?
(Which is not the same thing, see section 10 which records the differences between cases where there was a suspect and where one was not. In 207 cases no suspect was charged, in 523 cases a suspect(s)was charged, this is NOT the total number of initially recorded homicides, 730, used to calculate the 12 per 1,000,000)

As the ONS report cautions care should be taken in analysing the figures for statistical anomalies. For example the 2003 figure rose sharply due to the inclusion of the 173 victims of a serial killer not being officially recorded until that year, likewise the 2017 figure was increased by 89 deaths that in-fact occurred in 1989.
The 1.2 per 100,000 figure is accurate for ALL the Homicides that occurred in 2018. Not just those that were solved, or had a suspect, arrest, prosecution or conviction. The ONS source clearly says this, did you read it?

There is even a caveat that a Homicide does not require violence to be considered as such, for example the inclusion of 58 migrants who suffocated in the back of a lorry in the official homicide rate, or 20 people who drowned in a flood due to criminal negligence.
(Does this not suggest a broader definition?)

Using British criteria for counting criminal homicides, Chicago had only about 50 homicides in 2018 rather than 590.
Problem solved.

Seriously the Police in Chicago only manage to solve 8% of homicides, compared to the British rate of 72%!
(No Law Enforcement agency can be that bad?)

Edit: Just to be clear again, the 730 (719 with 10 later excluded, for 2017) Homicides figure is that recorded by the British Police, and reported by such in the official government archives. In 2017 the FBI listed 17,284 Homicides ... this is a comparison of crimes considered to be murders listed by the respective Law Enforcement Agencies!
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... ges/murder
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... gmarch2017


Just one example of the differences, the FBI SHRs are not adjusted for acquittals.

Also, American police massively under report killings by police. If they fail to coerce a coroner into ruling the death as a "suicide by cop" they count it as a civilian murder.

The big take away for me is that Great Britain s clearance rate for homicide has plummeted from about 95% to 72%. This is exactly what happened in the US from 1960 to 1970.
Us homicide rates soared as a consequence .

You are so royally screwed. Your Homicide rate is going to double or triple in the next decade. Knife control will not save you.

(I just corrected my typo on clearance rates.)
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:09 am

TFLYTSNBN
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Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Just to keep stirring the pot, I thought that I would post this:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9383191/l ... l-killing/

If it is any consolation to you Brits, I recall when New York City was having close to 2,000 homicides per year. Yes, most of these murders were committed with guns.
No. Rifles much less "assault rifles" were not the weapons used to commit murder in NYC.
The vast majority of NYC homicides were never solved. London police are still solving more murders than NYC police, but their clearance rate is dropping.
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:42 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:The vast majority of NYC homicides were never solved. London police are still solving more murders than NYC police, but their clearance rate is dropping.

Given that the murder rate in London is significantly less than in NYC, the fact that the UK cops solve a higher actual number is a damning indictment on the ability of the NYC cops.

Or a damning indictment on US gun culture.


...or both...
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
Animal Crossing Dreams at 6E00-00F5-2891
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Re: Knives, Knives, Knives
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:25 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just to keep stirring the pot, I thought that I would post this:


You are not "stirring the pot". You are just posting random anecdotal incidents and pretending that is the same thing as making an argument.
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