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Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.

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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:37 pm

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pokermind wrote:Hmm,you can still buy Nazi flags on E-bay and Amazon,


Show me one flying on the grounds of a State Capital whose legislature passed a law specifically forbidding it's removal and we'll talk as if those two situations are equivalent.

Private companies can make whatever decisions on merhcandise stocking they like. That is VERY DIFFERENT from your own government going out of it's way to endorse something.

typical liberal mindset it's OK to discriminate against Jews, and Christians just not blacks or Muslims.


And where exactly did I or anyone else say the former was OK?

OK we got a left-wing nut job some one from the Right care to hold forth. Bye the bye I live 20 miles from Hunt, a US Concentration camp from WW 2 where Japanese Americans were shipped while gone their property and business changed hands to good Democrats like the Browns, Hmm you can still buy an American Flag.


What part of that battle flag NOT being hijacked from some pre-existing nobler purpose but being created SOLELY for the one despicable "we love slavery and want to keep it forever" faction in American history is not getting through to you?


The American flag legitimately represents far more than some of the isolated dishonorable and shameful incidents that occurred throughout the nation's history. The Confederate flag on the other had was purpose made for the Confederacy at the beginning of the war and was used ONLY by the Confederacy during the war.


It represents exactly one thing. The Confederacy and their cause. Anyone wants to claim they're waving it around to represent their proud heritage it's THAT HERITAGE they're saying they're proud of. Which as individuals they're still entirely entitled to do. It makes them pretty despicable (or, in the most generous interpretation I can come up with, horribly historically clueless) but they're allowed to be despicable or clueless.


But the government of your state putting its official stamp of approval on its display is a totally different animal. It is a disgrace.
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by pokermind   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:58 pm

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Hmm, You still have no empathy with those who feel differently than you on an issue, Hmm, not being able to have empathy for other people is the definition of being a psychopath. Hmm,therefore you are a nutter. Hmm, the exact same thing that caused the Southerners to decide to withdraw from the union causing the civil war. Why? in this song, the Bonnie Blue Flag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PICQDvqb0vE

If you disagree with the legislature of South Carolina go there and vote the rascals out after you establish residence.

Back to the Tequila, Poker
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"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:10 pm

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I'm trying to decide if you actually think that cat is in some way a refutation of any of the points I have made...



pokermind wrote:Hmm, You still have no empathy with those who feel differently than you on an issue, Hmm, not being able to have empathy for other people is the definition of being a psychopath. Hmm,therefore you are a nutter.


Says the guy who has twice posted his funny little gif calling for "moderation" and opened his OP with a request that everyone not give in to the "extremist hate mongers" and "take a chill pill".

Am I the one who has first referred to you as a "nut job" and now a "psychopath" just for not agreeing on this? Hmmm? I've posted reasoned arguments supporting my position, you've posted... this lovely collection of ad hominem and drunk feline pics.


You know what would have made a nice accompaniment to the cat gifs and name calling? Anything resembling a rebuttal to any of the substance of the arguments I presented. Or is name calling (and accusing me of taking positions I never did like excusing discrimination against Christians and Jews) the only thing you can muster on this?
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by pokermind   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:36 pm

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I can only shake my head, here I give you the first Confederate national song to look at, and you did not catch the salient point. There is a line in there "We fight for our property we earned by honest toil" Property was a polite word for slaves in the south at that time that would prove your argument that the war was about slavery. :o :o :o :o :o :o Many southern apologists refuse to acknowledge that the war was about slavery.

The law in South Carolina was a protest to integration passed in the middle of the Civil Rights struggle and IMHO should be repealed. I'm old enough to recall the Whites only sings in the south and thinking how stupid and unfair it was.

So why I could not contradict your points, I agreed with them. Hence cute kitty. OK it's OK for gays to sue a bakery for not making a gay wedding cake due to the owner's beliefs, but it's not OK to sue Wallmart for refusing to make a cake with the Confederate flag so justify that contradiction to me. Both after all are just business decisions. Hmmm, a hint discrimination is discrimination both are justifiable law suits.

I still maintain that love of heritage and hate of injustice the flag represents are both valid for the individuals holding them. Who am I or you for that matter to judge the more valid view.

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:18 am

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pokermind wrote:I can only shake my head, here I give you the first Confederate national song to look at, and you did not catch the salient point. There is a line in there "We fight for our property we earned by honest toil" Property was a polite word for slaves in the south at that time that would prove your argument that the war was about slavery. :o :o :o :o :o :o Many southern apologists refuse to acknowledge that the war was about slavery.

The law in South Carolina was a protest to integration passed in the middle of the Civil Rights struggle and IMHO should be repealed. I'm old enough to recall the Whites only sings in the south and thinking how stupid and unfair it was.

So why I could not contradict your points, I agreed with them. Hence cute kitty.


Alright, the "nutjob" and "psychopath" bits probably threw me off your attempt to agree with me...


OK it's OK for gays to sue a bakery for not making a gay wedding cake due to the owner's beliefs, but it's not OK to sue Wallmart for refusing to make a cake with the Confederate flag so justify that contradiction to me.


Not going to try, both are equivalent situations. As I said, private business =/= your government.


I still maintain that love of heritage and hate of injustice the flag represents are both valid for the individuals holding them. Who am I or you for that matter to judge the more valid view.


If we can't judge valid world views than all political ethical and moral debate kind of stops. Everyone in the world is equally right, everyone do whatever you want... 'cause who are we to judge?


The fact still remains that the specific "heritage" we are talking about with that flag is the one about starting a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the cause of demanding to continue being able to own people as property. that is the one and only event for which that flag was crafted. Which means I have to repeat that the most generous possible judgement I can give to anyone who uses that flag as a symbol of their proud heritage is hopelessly horrendously clueless about their own history. And that's really needing to extend some pretty impressive benefits of the doubt to get that far instead of using significantly more derogatory language.
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:20 pm

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gcomeau; I believe the North attacked the South. The South just wanted to go its own way. I also believe comparing the Nazis with Jews and the Confederacy with Blacks is also rather blunt and not accurate. The South did not murder Blacks.

The Northern States also had slavery. The South probably took better care of their slaves than the North did with the cheap throw a way whites working in the northern company towns. The slaves did have better medical care. The North gave none.

The average slave in 1860 cost over $20,000 by todays value. Very spendy. Only one in five Southerners even owned slaves. The slaves life style was very harsh indeed. They were slaves. But there are comparisions to living conditions of the Northern poor whites.

We were taught, (Deep South) that it was economic/political conditions that led to the War Of Northern Agression. Yes, slavery did enter into it. Compare such slave conditions to that of the fresh off the boat European white immigrant arriving then.

All of this happened a long time ago. What I find scary is the power block or power base that has the ability to ignite such media conditions and supercharge perhaps non prior existing conditions. Now who would be doing that? And for what purpose?

Respectfully. HB of CJ (Oldest Southern Coot)
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:23 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:gcomeau; I believe the North attacked the South. The South just wanted to go its own way. I also believe comparing the Nazis with Jews and the Confederacy with Blacks is also rather blunt and not accurate. The South did not murder Blacks.


Before I continue addressing the rest of this post... are you trying to say blacks weren't *killed*... or that it was pretty much never murder because it was damn near impossible for a white person to ever be charged with murder for killing a slave in the slaveholding states?
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:35 pm

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gcomeau; I dont understand. The Nazies murdered millions of Jews in Germany (and Europe) during WW2. Probably some were my distant relations.

I do not remember learning that the South on purpose murdered millions of black slaves. That was the comparison. Nothing more. Ahh ... more ...

Are you actually suggesting that the South murdering black people was comparable and equal to the Nazis killing Jewish people during WW2? That is what I hear?

If soss, not even close. Probably very few black slaves in the South were murdered by anybody. They were valuable property. Very expensive indeed.

But, in Europe during WW2, literally millions of Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Millions. To even compare the two horrible events is strange.

IMHO, your presentations slip around some. Your arguments slide sideways from the discussions at hand and focus on some obscure portion of others point of view.

Then you attempt to attack that from some vague point of logic. I for one do not understand this. Perhaps you can be more forthcoming and precise?

Respectfully. HB of CJ (oldest Southern Coot)
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by The E   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:10 am

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And if you think celebrating a symbol of slavery and oppression can be spun into "honoring our heritage", you're out of your mind.

See this article here? It's a prime example of why you guys need more education about the shitty things your ancestors in the south did.

As people have remarked over this, if you feel like "honoring your heritage", noone's going to stop you.

But that's not something the government should be doing, and it isn't something you should be expecting any help with from the big retailers, either.
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Re: Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.
Post by pokermind   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:48 am

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Do you revere the flag of the United States?

Some things that happened under that flag:

Genocide, Whole tribes of native Americans were exterminated.

Concentration camps, Indian Reservations, the Japanese Americans in WW 2.

Legal Discrimination based on Race Jim Crow Laws, Indians not considered citizens or able to vote long after freed slaves had the franchise.

Forced movement and loss of property, Native Americans and Japanese again. Did you know that many Native Tribes forced into exile in Indian Territory, later Oklahoma, joined the Confederacy to fight against that hated flag of oppression.

Forced purchases of insurance IE Social Security, Affordable Care Act, and Liability insurance.

Toppling dully elected governments in foreign lands and installing dictators. The banana republics and arguably the Confederate States of America.

Allowing murder, torture, detention without allowing due course of law, violation of Civil Rights, Constitutional Rights, violation of international treaty obligations, testing drugs, radiation effects with out informed consent, yep Homeland Security various executive orders by presidents of both major political parties. All things we prosecuted Nazi War Criminals for.

We complacently watched as the War on Drugs turned our police into jack-booted thugs. The War on Radical Islam turned our army into Nazis.

Hmm people in glass houses should be cautious throwing brick bats.

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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