Guns, Guns Guns

It's not the type of weapon that is the issue, it's where and when you have them.
I want---
[1] background checks (prevents criminals from buying)
[2] seven (7) day waiting period before the gun store can give you the weapon. (giving the person time to cool off if the purchase is based on anger)
[3] provide a valid home address
[4] illegal to carry a firearm in public places

Any objections-?

chuckpeterson wrote:It's not the type of weapon that is the issue, it's where and when you have them.
I want---
[1] background checks (prevents criminals from buying)
[2] seven (7) day waiting period before the gun store can give you the weapon. (giving the person time to cool off if the purchase is based on anger)
[3] provide a valid home address
[4] illegal to carry a firearm in public places

Any objections-?

1, We already have background checks.

2, most mass shootings are committed with weapons that were obtained illegally or were bought much longer than a week before the shootings.

3, you might be on to something here. If someone has to wait for a letter mailed to the home address that they put on their gun purchase form, then they cant get away with using a false adress.

4, how about holders of concealed weapons permits? People hunting? People going hunting?

How about vigorously prosecuting people who shoot at people? No Elmer Fudd defense allowed.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Joat42 wrote:And you still missed the important point I hinted at. Do want to guess what it was?

Why would I want to play stupid guessing games with you when you are either too stupid or to dishonst to acknowledge my point? Handgrenade attacks are far more common in Sweden than the US even though Sweden regulates civilian pissession of explisive devices just as the US does. Criminals are committing hand grenade crimes in Sweden because you have a subculture of criminals that use handgrenades to commit crimes. The US has a subculture that is only 1/8 of the population that commits over 1/2 of homicides and nearly 2/3 of all gun homicides. The US has another subculture that is only 1/8 of the population that commits about 1/3 of all homicides. Exclude killings committed by these two subcultures and the US homicide rate is lower than Sweden's.

Wait? What?

Does it matter what illegal or legal weapons are used for intentional homicides? You want to exclude some types of homicides from the statistics so you can prove that the USA allegedly has a lower homicide rate? Talk about twisting statistics to fit your preconceptions.

It seems you missed the point all together. The choice of weapon to use in attacks are usually due to ease of access.

The USA has an intentional homicide rate (5,35 per 100,000 as of 2016, and adjusted for the 5% drop in 2017 it ends up at ~5,22) that's 5 times higher than Sweden for the same year. If we exclude everything according to your reasoning that amounts to a homicide rate of about 0,89. The ratio in Sweden for people who was shot dead was 0,39 and the ratio for all other types of murder or manslaughter was about 0,73. The average rate for Sweden with that in mind was then 1,12.

So for 2017 even though I choose not to exclude any groups perpetrating a homicide the rates for Sweden is lower than your cherry picked rate. Even if I include the sum of all people killed by hand-grenade attacks (2 in total) it wouldn't change that fact.

It should be said that the Swedish rate for 2018 is higher but since the statistics haven't been published yet I can't say how high - but comparing ratios that isn't cherry picked and twisted will show that the ratio will be significantly lower than the USA in any case.

In the end it's not with what weapon someone is killed that matters, it's that a person has been killed and the drive to stop it from happening again. That means regulating weapons, and regulation has a big impact on homicides. The number of homicides in Sweden with legal weapons (stolen or by it's owner) is in low single digits, 1 or 2 a year.

So... You totally missed the point and posted a bunch of hogwash with no basis in fact.

Joat42 wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:


Why would I want to play stupid guessing games with you when you are either too stupid or to dishonst to acknowledge my point? Handgrenade attacks are far more common in Sweden than the US even though Sweden regulates civilian pissession of explisive devices just as the US does. Criminals are committing hand grenade crimes in Sweden because you have a subculture of criminals that use handgrenades to commit crimes. The US has a subculture that is only 1/8 of the population that commits over 1/2 of homicides and nearly 2/3 of all gun homicides. The US has another subculture that is only 1/8 of the population that commits about 1/3 of all homicides. Exclude killings committed by these two subcultures and the US homicide rate is lower than Sweden's.

Wait? What?

Does it matter what illegal or legal weapons are used for intentional homicides? You want to exclude some types of homicides from the statistics so you can prove that the USA allegedly has a lower homicide rate? Talk about twisting statistics to fit your preconceptions.

It seems you missed the point all together. The choice of weapon to use in attacks are usually due to ease of access.

The USA has an intentional homicide rate (5,35 per 100,000 as of 2016, and adjusted for the 5% drop in 2017 it ends up at ~5,22) that's 5 times higher than Sweden for the same year. If we exclude everything according to your reasoning that amounts to a homicide rate of about 0,89. The ratio in Sweden for people who was shot dead was 0,39 and the ratio for all other types of murder or manslaughter was about 0,73. The average rate for Sweden with that in mind was then 1,12.

So for 2017 even though I choose not to exclude any groups perpetrating a homicide the rates for Sweden is lower than your cherry picked rate. Even if I include the sum of all people killed by hand-grenade attacks (2 in total) it wouldn't change that fact.

It should be said that the Swedish rate for 2018 is higher but since the statistics haven't been published yet I can't say how high - but comparing ratios that isn't cherry picked and twisted will show that the ratio will be significantly lower than the USA in any case.

In the end it's not with what weapon someone is killed that matters, it's that a person has been killed and the drive to stop it from happening again. That means regulating weapons, and regulation has a big impact on homicides. The number of homicides in Sweden with legal weapons (stolen or by it's owner) is in low single digits, 1 or 2 a year.

So... You totally missed the point and posted a bunch of hogwash with no basis in fact.

The US homicide rate that you cite includes non negligent manslaughter which most countries exclude from their homicide ststistics. The United Nations Demographic Yearbook is very informative on this point.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The US homicide rate that you cite includes non negligent manslaughter which most countries exclude from their homicide ststistics. The United Nations Demographic Yearbook is very informative on this point.

The homicide rate I gave for the USA is for intentional homicides only.

The statistics I gave for Sweden includes non-negligent manslaughter because the statistics reflects deaths by violence and not intent.

You Swedes are all the same!

Literally.

The population of Sweden is 93% Swedish. Same background, same history, same beliefs. Much less potential for ethnic conflict. There are no significant places in the United States where one group makes up 93% of the population.

There are more illegal aliens in California alone than non-Swedes in all of Sweden.

Sweden is also small. Nine US states have larger populations than Sweden. Violence and crime increase faster than population, as individuals in a larger mass feel insignificant, anonymous and alienated. Not identified with the people around them.

Those factors must also be considered.

I'd agree, except that Australia makes a damn near similar point as Sweeden does, and if anything we are more multi-culrural as the US, nearly the same size physically, and our largest cities match the largest US cities for population. (But not the sprawl around New York or LA I suspect)

Imaginos1892 wrote:You Swedes are all the same!

Literally.

The population of Sweden is 93% Swedish. Same background, same history, same beliefs. Much less potential for ethnic conflict. There are no significant places in the United States where one group makes up 93% of the population.

There are more illegal aliens in California alone than non-Swedes in all of Sweden.

Sweden is also small. Nine US states have larger populations than Sweden. Violence and crime increase faster than population, as individuals in a larger mass feel insignificant, anonymous and alienated. Not identified with the people around them.

Those factors must also be considered.

Toronto is the 4th most populous and possibly the single most ethnically diverse metropolitan area in North America. Right around half it'spopulation is foreign born immigrants.

Strangely, no serious murder spree problem on any scales similar to the American cities across the border.

It's been extensively documented that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population in the US as well. And yes that is including the undocumented.

There, it's been accounted for. Anything else you wanted to try?

Joat42 wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The US homicide rate that you cite includes non negligent manslaughter which most countries exclude from their homicide ststistics. The United Nations Demographic Yearbook is very informative on this point.

The homicide rate I gave for the USA is for intentional homicides only.

The statistics I gave for Sweden includes non-negligent manslaughter because the statistics reflects deaths by violence and not intent.

You are incorrect about the statistic on US Homicide rates. The numbers compiled and released by the FBI which you have obviously cited include both intentional homicides and nonnegligent manslaughter. The FBI states this in its annual Crime in the USA.

Before rushing to make comparisons, you need to be cognizant of differing methods and standards for compiling statistics in various countries. England counts homicides as murders only if they have been adjudicated as murder. The once enviably clearance rates achieved by British Bobbies has declined disgracefully which has not only resulted in an increase in homicides, it has allowed the murder rate etatistics to remain unchanged.

If the US were to exclude homicides that remain unsolved, no arrest was made, charges were dropped, there was a plea bargain to a lesser charge, or the accussed was acquitted,the murder rate in the United States would be lower than Seden's.

Joat42 wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The US homicide rate that you cite includes non negligent manslaughter which most countries exclude from their homicide ststistics. The United Nations Demographic Yearbook is very informative on this point.

The homicide rate I gave for the USA is for intentional homicides only.

The statistics I gave for Sweden includes non-negligent manslaughter because the statistics reflects deaths by violence and not intent.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are incorrect about the statistic on US Homicide rates. The numbers compiled and released by the FBI which you have obviously cited include both intentional homicides and nonnegligent manslaughter. The FBI states this in its annual Crime in the USA.

I used that statistics because both types counts as willful.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Before rushing to make comparisons, you need to be cognizant of differing methods and standards for compiling statistics in various countries. England counts homicides as murders only if they have been adjudicated as murder. The once enviably clearance rates achieved by British Bobbies has declined disgracefully which has not only resulted in an increase in homicides, it has allowed the murder rate etatistics to remain unchanged.

I'm fully aware of that - but is has no bearing on the ratio for Sweden.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If the US were to exclude homicides that remain unsolved, no arrest was made, charges were dropped, there was a plea bargain to a lesser charge, or the accussed was acquitted,the murder rate in the United States would be lower than Seden's.

If you arbitrarily remove some types of homicides from the statistics you can get any ratio you want which kind of defeats the purpose of the comparison. The comparison should be made as equally as possible, that means all types of homicides should be included with no qualifications added.