Guns, Guns Guns

Daryl wrote:I'm certainly glad that I don't live in that society, mind you if I did I'd move.
Couple of comments though. I don't have deliberate elaborate defences, just happened that way. The locked gate is to keep Mormons and JWs out. Bought my 8 acres about 45 years ago, for $5k, then had an old house I bought for $750 shifted on to it, and have been developing it with my own hands ever since.
My principal line of defence is that average citizens don't have free access to guns, particularly hand guns so they are rare. If one is used the uproar is as much about the possession as about the murder.
A final point is that US statistics show that "illegals" on average are more law abiding than citizens, as they have the double threat of deportation.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

Daryl wrote:To get to your original question, I live at the end of a one way street. Past my locked gate there is then a 200 metres long private driveway up a steep hill. After that there is a gate into my house yard, then my locked steel security door followed by my locked main wood door, (not to mention my German Shepherd).

So people who don't have the money to buy that much land and put up such elaborate defenses are just shit-out-of-luck. People who live in small houses on small lots, or in apartment buildings, where criminals can just walk up to their door and start breaking in. If they're lucky, they might have a minute to open two safes in two different rooms, assemble and load a gun that holds five rounds and takes three seconds for each shot.

I can grab my Springfield Armory .45 automatic and pull the hammer back in about five seconds. Eight 185-grain Silvertips as fast as I can work the trigger, and another four or five seconds to stick in a new magazine.

Here in the US we don't live on an island. We share a rather large continent with several failed socialist countries, and for political reasons our borders are not the least bit secured against the poor and the violent criminals from those countries that keep pouring into ours. Plus, of course, our own home-grown violent criminals.
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If you call 9-1-1 and tell them somebody with a gun is breaking into your house, they will send two cops in 10 or 15 minutes. If you tell them somebody is breaking into your house and YOU have a gun, they will send 10 or 15 cops in two minutes.

Daryl wrote:A final point is that US statistics show that "illegals" on average are more law abiding than citizens, as they have the double threat of deportation.

The danger of foreigners wielding the power of the internet on American politics is insane.

Daryl, if they are illegals, how exactly are they law abiding?

Even a foreigners disconnect is . . . disconnected.

I keep repeating myself. Unqualified statistics hogs who utilize the internet in search of statistics but can't accurately digest it is simply spouting slop.

Accurately digesting statistics is a lucrative career called marketing. Repeat. Rinse. Repeat.

cthia wrote:

Daryl wrote:..snip..
A final point is that US statistics show that "illegals" on average are more law abiding than citizens, as they have the double threat of deportation.

The danger of foreigners wielding the power of the internet on American politics is insane.

Daryl, if they are illegals, how exactly are they law abiding?

Even a foreigners disconnect is . . . disconnected.

I keep repeating myself. Unqualified statistics hogs who utilize the internet in search of statistics but can't accurately digest it is simply spouting slop.

Accurately digesting statistics is a lucrative career called marketing. Repeat. Rinse. Repeat.

The number of crimes done by immigrants or "illegal aliens" are on average less than what an US citizen commits. Since they are committing fewer crimes they are in fact more law abiding exactly as Daryl wrote.

So I can only conclude that you didn't understand what Daryl wrote or that you intentionally misconstrued his statement to fit your faulty argument.

The only disconnect here is yours. Your view seems to be that no one except US citizens can understand US politics which in this instance has ZERO relevance on what Daryl wrote.

And statistics is a wonderful tool to prove to people that they are wrong. They usually hate it which is kind of fun to point out - especially since they tend to denigrate, diminish and explain away the usage of statistics. I didn't think you belonged in that category of people Cthia, but you just proved me wrong.

That's if you are arguing that there violating 18 USC 1325. Unlawful entry in of itself is a crime. However, if you'd like to argue that other than that they commit crime at a lower rate I agree with you. I'd have to say that's likely a reflection of the selection factors for migration.

I think it's silly, to use American Culture you see in the movies and tv as though it provides insight into the internal dynamics of the USA and its "gun culture".

I have lived overseas in Europe and currently live in South Korea. Frankly, I find it ironic that in both of those areas people were more than willing to criticize the USA (which I don't really have an issue with as long as it's factual) but heaven forbid if I as an American make a comment about any of the issues in their society.

Personally, I enjoy guns, I only own one and it's back in the states. There are arguments both ways as far as gun violence goes. I don't think specifically outlawing firearms and doing buy back would work in the USA the way it did in Australia. Firearms for better at times and for worse at times are endemic to the American identity especially in certain parts of the USA. Additionally, many of my fellow Millenials don't even understand how guns work well enough to have an intelligent opinion on them.

Fully agree Joat42 and ywing14.
For what it is worth I agree that the US is so far down the gun road that a buy back wouldn't work. If for some reason (medical treatment?) I had to reside in some parts of the US for a time, I would probably get a hand gun myself, and make sure I was fully competent with it, for self protection.
A tentative suggestion from a foreigner is that in a generation or so the US will be comprised of three groups, gangs that have guns, old style NRA types who keep them as traditional custom, and the rising generations growing up without them who aren't interested.

cthia wrote:

Daryl wrote:..snip..
A final point is that US statistics show that "illegals" on average are more law abiding than citizens, as they have the double threat of deportation.

The danger of foreigners wielding the power of the internet on American politics is insane.

Daryl, if they are illegals, how exactly are they law abiding?

Even a foreigners disconnect is . . . disconnected.

I keep repeating myself. Unqualified statistics hogs who utilize the internet in search of statistics but can't accurately digest it is simply spouting slop.

Accurately digesting statistics is a lucrative career called marketing. Repeat. Rinse. Repeat.

Joat42 wrote:The number of crimes done by immigrants or "illegal aliens" are on average less than what an US citizen commits. Since they are committing fewer crimes they are in fact more law abiding exactly as Daryl wrote.

So I can only conclude that you didn't understand what Daryl wrote or that you intentionally misconstrued his statement to fit your faulty argument.

The only disconnect here is yours. Your view seems to be that no one except US citizens can understand US politics which in this instance has ZERO relevance on what Daryl wrote.

And statistics is a wonderful tool to prove to people that they are wrong. They usually hate it which is kind of fun to point out - especially since they tend to denigrate, diminish and explain away the usage of statistics. I didn't think you belonged in that category of people Cthia, but you just proved me wrong.

Statistics is a wonderful tool. For the wonderful people who know how to use it.

Faulty argument? I'm an American telling you you have no clue. You tell me that's faulty? SOB!

First off, your statistics is bullshit. Do you really think there's a handle on how many guns are in this country? Of course you do. Our government is only guestimating. THEY DON'T KNOW! Do you think they went around and counted them? Please! The number of guns that actually are in the country probably increased by a third when Trump hit office. By another third when the threat to curtail gun sales hit. By another third when the second hit. By another third when the hate crimes began. But I digress.

All of this is simply more of your arrogance and ignorance. What makes you think you have any idea what's really going on? The US is the big kid on the block and other nations want to try and reason out their problems. You can't. And no, you don't know what's going on in American politics. Each time you speak it's evident.

Let's take illegal aliens. You have NO earthly idea the amount of problems and headaches are caused by illegal aliens in this country. It is true that illegal aliens have received grants, professional accreditations, loans, WIC, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies. Emergency medical care. Taking away these things from legal citizens. My sister is pissed because of the strain they put on the health care system. She's a surgeon. Which is a mess because of illegal aliens.

When illegal aliens pour into this country, they come in hordes. Forget about the phucking statistic you read that they don't commit crimes. I know for a fact what their MO is. When first entering the country, when there ARE no records of them, when there are no paper trails of them, when they aren't in the system yet, they commit crimes! They call it their "grace" period. They are broke and in need of cash. Their first few weeks are crime sprees to get on their feet. This is straight from their own mouths! I used to go out in disenfranchised neighborhoods volunteering to help alleviate problems. You gain their trust. You learn much. You people are as gullible as the crap you get off the internet. Most illegal aliens become squatters their first weeks, breaking and entering into vacation homes, private and commercial properties, abandoned homes. I've got a friend who constantly fights the problem on his rental properties! And our laws want to hold him responsible for injuries caused on his properties involving illegal aliens. . .squatting.

Do us both a favor and do us both a favor. Sheesh!

But all that's just the tip of the iceberg. What about the horror stories about American citizens being caught between insurance companies who won't pay because Company A hired an illegal alien, or Company B did this involving illegal aliens, etc., etc., etc., which was against the rules, and said illegal alien is responsible for causing an American citizen to lose his leg while driving a forklift. Result, American without a leg and no compensation. The company got slapped hard, but what about the man and his lost leg? There are many insurance cases I've heard about where hapless Americans are caught in the middle of problems caused by illegal aliens. I have a brother whose best friend's father lost his entire company because he was involved with an illegal alien, which he had no idea. The IRS doesn't care. One of my friends neighborhoods was hit hard by tuberculosis cause by illegal aliens. When they recovered, they were hit again by influenza, losing a small child to that one. Then they were hit again by Chagas and the West Nike Virus before all of it was tracked down to a family of illegals. Not a problem, don't commit any crimes? Tell that to that unfortunate very affluent neighborhood and the small child killed, and the American citizen who has lost a leg without compensation. Tell it to the families who lost jobs during the 3 months they were so sick. What the hell makes you people think you know what's really going on in the US? And you're adamant about it too. Your flavor of arrogance is appalling.

Internet Americans. Gees! I live here people. I don't get my facts off the internet.

And this subject of guns? You have no phucking idea.

cthia wrote:First off, your statistics is bullshit. Do you really think there's a handle on how many guns are in this country? Of course you do. Our government is only guestimating. THEY DON'T KNOW! Do you think they went around and counted them? Please! The number of guns that actually are in the country probably increased by a third when Trump hit office. By another third when the threat to curtail gun sales hit. By another third when the second hit. By another third when the hate crimes began. But I digress.

Hold on a second.

If that is true, then why are gun manufacturers going out of business? Why are gun sales down?

http://fortune.com/2017/09/11/trump-gun-sales-decline/
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-gun-slum ... rol-827947
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/27/58906197 ... han-buyers
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... takes-hold
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/201 ... 457709002/

(This is just an ignorant european's opinion, of course, but it seems to me that fear of an imminent ban of guns is a much greater driver of gun sales than any actual need for guns)

But, do carry on, I am sure this isn't going to make a difference for the rest of your arguments.

All of this is simply more of your arrogance and ignorance. What makes you think you have any idea what's really going on? The US is the big kid on the block and other nations want to try and reason out their problems. You can't. And no, you don't know what's going on in American politics. Each time you speak it's evident.

Hmm. Not the only thing that's evident, I should say.

Let's take illegal aliens. You have NO earthly idea the amount of problems and headaches are caused by illegal aliens in this country. It is true that illegal aliens have received grants, professional accreditations, loans, WIC, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies. Emergency medical care. Taking away these things from legal citizens. My sister is pissed because of the strain they put on the health care system. She's a surgeon. Which is a mess because of illegal aliens.

Oh, I thought it was a mess because you people a) have no working national ID system, b) have no working national health care system, and c) are violently opposed to fixing either.

Also, since you have so much good information, please tell us how many illegal aliens there are in the country. Ballpark figures will suffice. Please be sure to include sourcing, if available.

When illegal aliens pour into this country, they come in hordes. Forget about the phucking statistic you read that they don't commit crimes. I know for a fact what their MO is. When first entering the country, when there ARE no records of them, when there are no paper trails of them, when they aren't in the system yet, they commit crimes! They call it their "grace" period. They are broke and in need of cash. Their first few weeks are crime sprees to get on their feet. This is straight from their own mouths! I used to go out in disenfranchised neighborhoods volunteering to help alleviate problems. You gain their trust. You learn much. You people are as gullible as the crap you get off the internet. Most illegal aliens become squatters their first weeks, breaking and entering into vacation homes, private and commercial properties, abandoned homes. I've got a friend who constantly fights the problem on his rental properties! And our laws want to hold him responsible for injuries caused on his properties involving illegal aliens. . .squatting.

Interesting. Do you have any objective sources on this?

You know, ones that aren't you or your friends or your acquaintances.
As invested as you are in reason and logic, surely you know that the plural of anecdote isn't fact. So, give us some facts.

Do us both a favor and do us both a favor. Sheesh!

But all that's just the tip of the iceberg. What about the horror stories about American citizens being caught between insurance companies who won't pay because Company A hired an illegal alien, or Company B did this involving illegal aliens, etc., etc., etc., which was against the rules, and said illegal alien is responsible for causing an American citizen to lose his leg while driving a forklift. Result, American without a leg and no compensation. The company got slapped hard, but what about the man and his lost leg? There are many insurance cases I've heard about where hapless Americans are caught in the middle of problems caused by illegal aliens. I have a brother whose best friend's father lost his entire company because he was involved with an illegal alien, which he had no idea. The IRS doesn't care. One of my friends neighborhoods was hit hard by tuberculosis cause by illegal aliens. When they recovered, they were hit again by influenza, losing a small child to that one. Then they were hit again by Chagas and the West Nike Virus before all of it was tracked down to a family of illegals. Not a problem, don't commit any crimes? Tell that to that unfortunate very affluent neighborhood and the small child killed, and the American citizen who has lost a leg without compensation. Tell it to the families who lost jobs during the 3 months they were so sick. What the hell makes you people think you know what's really going on in the US? And you're adamant about it too. Your flavor of arrogance is appalling.

Oh hey, more anecdotes!

They're still not facts, just FYI.

Internet Americans. Gees! I live here people. I don't get my facts off the internet.

I wonder where you do get your facts (as opposed to your anecdotes) from though.

And this subject of guns? You have no phucking idea.

And you do?

More statistics. More misplaced misguided statistics from unqualified internet researchers. You people are amazing. Do you have any idea how business works in America? If you did you wouldn't ask these stupid questions. Or come to these stupid conclusions.

There were 4 extremely active runs on guns here in America. Some say 7. During these periods a shitload of guns were purchased. WE HAVE ENOUGH!

Businesses are closing, you idiot, because they didn't have the common sense to hedge against the bust. A lot of guns were purchased in a small window instead of over a normal period sustaining the market. Year end sales figures are problematical, especially if your business is heavily financed! Compounding that issue, is the problem injected into that market of so many fly by night gun companies trying to take advantage of the gun rush during that period. Many people are content now with the amount of guns they have. The need is leveling off.

The ones who aren't are turning to illegal sources of gun sales, BECAUSE OF THE INCREASED DIFFICULTY TO ACTUALLY PURCHASE GUNS NOW! You nitwit! How do I know this? From talk in my social circles at the gun range I attend - IN AMERICA! But I know, it doesn't count because you only trust the internet that is not -- in America. Nitwit.

AND BECAUSE I LIVE IN AMERICA!

cthia wrote:More statistics. More misplaced misguided statistics from unqualified internet researchers. You people are amazing. Do you have any idea how business works in America? If you did you wouldn't ask these stupid questions. Or come to these stupid conclusions.

You know, just because you say they're fake news doesn't mean they are.
If you have better facts, show them! Don't think that you have credibility, prove that you do by showing what the real story is; If all of this is so very obviously fake to you, then there should be some more balanced or factual reporting on the subject that you can refer us to. Right now, it's your word (aka, what a random guy on the internet says) versus sourced reporting from a number of sources.

Guess who I think is more credible here.

There were 4 extremely active runs on guns here in America. Some say 7. During these periods a shitload of guns were purchased. WE HAVE ENOUGH!

Do you?

Businesses are closing, you idiot, because they didn't have the common sense to hedge against the bust. A lot of guns were purchased in a small window instead of over a normal period sustaining the market. Year end sales figures are problematical, especially if your business is heavily financed! Compounding that issue, is the problem injected into that market of so many fly by night gun companies trying to take advantage of the gun rush during that period. Many people are content now with the amount of guns they have. The need is leveling off.

And what was that supposed need driven by? Was it really, truly, an appreciable uptick in criminality as you claim (which would be unsupported by the data available), or a result of a massive scaremongering campaign driven by the NRA and their supposition that a democrat government under Clinton would introduce harsher regulatory measures on gun sales?

Let's be clear here: You claimed that

The number of guns that actually are in the country probably increased by a third when Trump hit office. By another third when the threat to curtail gun sales hit. By another third when the second hit. By another third when the hate crimes began.

This is not borne out by the data. In fact, the data shows that after Trump got elected, gun sales volumes contracted and are continuing to contract.
This is in direct opposition to your statement above, so please explain that discrepancy.

Secondly, if as you say the market is saturated (and thus any new gun sales are either collectors building their collection, people replacing broken guns or people buying their first guns), why is it still so large?

The ones who aren't are turning to illegal sources of gun sales, BECAUSE OF THE INCREASED DIFFICULTY TO ACTUALLY PURCHASE GUNS NOW! You nitwit! How do I know this? From talk in my social circles at the gun range I attend - IN AMERICA! But I know, it doesn't count because you only trust the internet that is not -- in America. Nitwit.

Whether or not I trust you (I don't, after all, I know your evidentiary standards) is beside the point. I do not trust any single person on this topic; I prefer to hear from multiple sources, and most of them seem to agree that gun sales in the US are not driven by actual need, but more often than not by media reports inciting Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about coming gun regulations, immigrants or crime in general.

(Also, holy hell, an idiot AND a nitwit? Clearly I am not doing enough; I was shooting for "utter moron" or "total imbecile" here)

My brother is a Chief of Police. My brother-in-law has worked in Washington D.C. in law enforcement for over 40 years. A sister has retired from the force. Several friends are officers. A high school buddy is a State Trooper. Many more friends are officers. Many friends and family in government. Heck, in one city the mayor and assistant mayor are both my first cousins! Why the hell do I need to get my sources from the internet about America when I'm right here!



Be all that as it may, I concede to you. After thinking about it. After really really giving it much thought, I think I've been unfair to you. I now accept your many man hours of study on the internet as accredited bona fide courses of everything American. I was wrong. What do I know anyway, I only live here.

You are absolutely right about everything American.

cthia wrote:My brother is a Chief of Police. My brother-in-law has worked in Washington D.C. in law enforcement for over 40 years. A sister has retired from the force. Several friends are officers. A high school buddy is a State Trooper. Many more friends are officers. Many friends and family in government. Heck, in one city the mayor and assistant mayor are both my first cousins! Why the hell do I need to get my sources from the internet about America when I'm right here!

Oh, I thought you were trying to convince people that your opinions are based on actual, objective fact and that you knew the difference between anecdotes (even very believable ones) and facts.

My mistake, sorry.

Be all that as it may, I concede to you. After thinking about it. After really really giving it much thought, I think I've been unfair to you. I now accept your many man hours of study on the internet as accredited bona fide courses of everything American. I was wrong. What do I know anyway, I only live here.

You are absolutely right about everything American.

I never figured you to be this petulant about losing an argument.