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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:22 pm

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Not so much perfectly implement it maybe, so much as implement it better now/in 20 years or so. It is probably harder nowdays to hide corruption than it used to be, thanks to computers and automated systems removing some of the ways to steal money, and the increase in automation will probably push that further. Add to that we now have experience in how not to implement certain parts of it, and im sure a thought out implementation of a form of socialism should well work out better than the previous versions, or at least the claimed previous versions.




MAD-4A wrote:
Spacekiwi wrote:I would actually argue that it can work, it just couldnt work in the past due to an inability to perfectly implement it...
You seem to have an idea that humans have the ability to implement ANYTHING "perfectly", where are these "perfect" humans? Haven't seen any yet.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:30 pm

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Generally speaking, no stats are kept about using guns in self defence.
Hell, they're not really kept for using a gun to kill in self defence.

So everything is a little soft numbers wise.

Oh, the comment about looking at root causes in everything exceot for guns is BS.

The Auto industry has a long, long, history of being regulated to make cars safer.
It still does research to make cars safer.
Hell hundreds of people loose their license to drive every day.


It always gets me. The right to bear arms shall not be abridged, but it's been abridged since the amendment was brought in.

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:35 pm

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Using wikipedia and its sources, i get 3.8 murders per hundred thousand, and 0.9 per hundred thousand for New Zealand. which matches the NZ govt estimate of the US having a violent crime level 4 times NZ since 2000. (http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2002/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime)

Using the data on gun crimes, NZ has 1.07 gun crimes per hundred thousand, while the US has 10.64 per hundred thousand.


Based just off this, the US has a violence problem, AS WELL AS a gun problem. While the homicide rate is 4 times higher, the violence rate with guns is 10 times higher, or 2.5 times more likely per crime to be killed by a gun compare4d to other methods.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

biochem wrote:Under the assumption that those graphs are accurate. The USA doesn't have a gun problem, it has a murder/assault problem. It is unlikely that those who want to commit murder/assault wouldn't do so just using another means, if guns were magically removed. So the colors on the bars would simply shift from the gun bar to the pointy object bar. So perhaps we should discuss how to reduce murder/assault in general. One point is that the vast majority of murders/assaults occur in high crime areas that constitute a very small % of the USA as a whole. Cure those areas (or even some of them) and watch the nationwide number crater.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:41 pm

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Ok statistic problem again.

Apart from homicides, actually even with them, it's difficult to compare crime stats from country to country as quite often they classify the crimes differently.

You may think armed robbery is armed robbery, but you really have to research what each country counts as armed robbery before you can try to compare statistics.

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:32 pm

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Annachie wrote:Ok statistic problem again.

Apart from homicides, actually even with them, it's difficult to compare crime stats from country to country as quite often they classify the crimes differently.

You may think armed robbery is armed robbery, but you really have to research what each country counts as armed robbery before you can try to compare statistics.

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Which is why looking at homicide rates is so convenient, there is very little room for country-to-country re-interpretation of what homicide is within the developed world.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Spacekiwi   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:09 pm

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Hence the stats link (link 1) which compared nz crime vs US crime, using the FBI qualifications as to what constituted each crime, removing law differences. so the NZ crimes were classified as if they were being investigated by the US justice system to determine the normalized crime levels between countries.




Annachie wrote:Ok statistic problem again.

Apart from homicides, actually even with them, it's difficult to compare crime stats from country to country as quite often they classify the crimes differently.

You may think armed robbery is armed robbery, but you really have to research what each country counts as armed robbery before you can try to compare statistics.

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`
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:34 pm

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gcomeau wrote:
Annachie wrote:Ok statistic problem again.

Apart from homicides, actually even with them, it's difficult to compare crime stats from country to country as quite often they classify the crimes differently.

You may think armed robbery is armed robbery, but you really have to research what each country counts as armed robbery before you can try to compare statistics.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Which is why looking at homicide rates is so convenient, there is very little room for country-to-country re-interpretation of what homicide is within the developed world.

Surpringly, there is.
Infanticide for example. Some countries count it seperate to homicide, some lump it in.




But yeah it's the best to use. Or at least, the easiest.

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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:08 am

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What ate the root causes that had crime steadily decreasing in the US until the 1960s? What are the root causes for the reversal in that trend that continued until the 1990s? Why did it reverse again until quite recently?

Those are the rout causes to consider. We know how guns kill people. The mechanism is brutally efficient. What we don't know well are the drivers that influence behavior either to commit crime or not to in aggregate. That behavior encourages the use of these brutally efficient tools either to commit crimes or to defend against crime.

Annachie wrote:Generally speaking, no stats are kept about using guns in self defence.
Hell, they're not really kept for using a gun to kill in self defence.

So everything is a little soft numbers wise.

Oh, the comment about looking at root causes in everything exceot for guns is BS.

The Auto industry has a long, long, history of being regulated to make cars safer.
It still does research to make cars safer.
Hell hundreds of people loose their license to drive every day.


It always gets me. The right to bear arms shall not be abridged, but it's been abridged since the amendment was brought in.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by biochem   » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:27 am

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gcomeau wrote:The reality is that the ready availability of a gun during incidents where tempers flare will *obviously* often cause an escalation. Where two people otherwise might have had heated words and maybe a shoving match... one or both of them pulls a gun to show what a big bad man they are or because they're feeling threatened and now we're off to the races. What might have been a drunken disorderly bar fight or a disturbing the peace citation now becomes a felonious assault with a deadly weapon or a homicide.


Guns don't fire themselves. Someone pulled that trigger. If they didn't have a gun they'd pull a switchblade, brass knuckles, etc etc. There may however be a shift in outcome. Guns are more efficient at killing people, so outcome might change: the assault number may rise and the homicide number would drop. Of course this assumes an alternative reality in which criminals and non-criminals alike are equally unarmed.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:30 pm

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biochem wrote:Guns don't fire themselves...
"Guns don't kill people, husbands who come home early kill people!"...or stab/club/run-over...
biochem wrote:...Of course this assumes an alternative reality in which criminals and non-criminals alike are equally unarmed.
Yes, Making gun laws takes guns out of the hands of criminals, because as we all know, criminals are famous for meticulously following the law. :roll:
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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