Ukraine

I have to confess to not ignoring he who shall be ignored.

That be conceeded, all I can say is RIGHT ON.

While this may have been a Nazi tactic, it is possible that the Ukrainians were merely emulating the American FBI's tactics. Those of us who disapproved of that barbecue in Waco refer to the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team as the Federal Bureau of Incineration's Hostage Rescue Team.

I wonder if the Ukrainians have been receiving the FBI's patented pyrotechnic tear gas rounds with their "non lethal" aid?

Tenshinai wrote:Massmurder in Odessa...

Right Sector supporters shuts people in a house and sets fire to it, then stands outside cheering as around 30 people die inside or when jumping out of windows...

A historical note few will know about, as our dear beloved massmedia dont want to remind you about it, is that this was the favoured way of "execution" during the nazi occupation of large parts of USSR.

Lock people in a house then burn it down.

it is possible that the Ukrainians were merely emulating the American FBI's tactics. Those of us who disapproved of that barbecue in Waco refer to the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team as the Federal Bureau of Incineration's Hostage Rescue Team.

Waco was a screwup, not intentional.

If something can be explained through incompetence as well as conspiracy, then incompetence is usually the true explanation.

More importantly however, if you go to Ukraine and ask them what happened at Waco, you will probably get a verbal questionmark in answer, because very few of them will know.

It was not an international news beyond a day or two. And outside USA it´s mostly long forgotten.
And Ukraine isn´t exactly one of the more internationalist nations.

Those of us in the US who paid attention are convinced that Waco was very intentional. There is even evidence that the BATF agents were shot by their own snipers.

Tenshinai wrote:

it is possible that the Ukrainians were merely emulating the American FBI's tactics. Those of us who disapproved of that barbecue in Waco refer to the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team as the Federal Bureau of Incineration's Hostage Rescue Team.

Waco was a screwup, not intentional.

If something can be explained through incompetence as well as conspiracy, then incompetence is usually the true explanation.

More importantly however, if you go to Ukraine and ask them what happened at Waco, you will probably get a verbal questionmark in answer, because very few of them will know.

It was not an international news beyond a day or two. And outside USA it´s mostly long forgotten.
And Ukraine isn´t exactly one of the more internationalist nations.

Kiev government recruiting new loyal police force.
I can only hope their idea of loyalty is not what I think it is.

Dharma wrote:Kiev government recruiting new loyal police force.
I can only hope their idea of loyalty is not what I think it is.

Probably the same breed of loyal thug that the BLM deployed to round up the Bundy Cattle.

I wouldexpectbto see a lot more pro-Russian activists dying in catastrophic fires until Putin has justification to kick Ukrainian ass.

I am so proud of my own government for inciting this war.

namelessfly wrote:I am so proud of my own government for inciting this war.

At the very least you taught your government not to shit at home. On the other hand we (both in Kyrgyzstan and in Ukraine)... Overthrowing existing corrupt government is surely satisfying but if replacement is no better - what the point of it?

Probably the same breed of loyal thug that the BLM deployed to round up the Bundy Cattle.

I wouldexpectbto see a lot more pro-Russian activists dying in catastrophic fires until Putin has justification to kick Ukrainian ass.

Not if they have anything resembling a working brains in their heads. Isolated incident is one thing but streak of semi-legal massacres?!

What happened in Odessa was a shock to me. Not even the level of atrocity - partially because those photos can be fakes and partially because I've heard things about outbreak of ethnic violence here that makes image of strangled pregnant woman seem mild in comparison. But I never believed it can go that far in Ukraine.
My grand-grandfather was stripped of his possessions for what amounted to being a good farmer. Than he was expelled from Ukraine - and just as well he was for he'd probably join Bandera out of bitterness should he stay. My co-worker's grandfather run from Ukraine because Bandera's associates intended to kill him. For us it is history. History of how people who were ready to kill - and some actually killed - their brothers and fathers, people who "won" the civil war and lost mercy and compassion in process, came to Ukraine with orders to get food. History to learn and not to repeat. It turns out, people in Ukraine see it in different light. Can't really blame them, but unfortunately it is not about blaming.

Tenshinai wrote:Massmurder in Odessa...

Right Sector supporters shuts people in a house and sets fire to it, then stands outside cheering as around 30 people die inside or when jumping out of windows...

A historical note few will know about, as our dear beloved massmedia dont want to remind you about it, is that this was the favoured way of "execution" during the nazi occupation of large parts of USSR.

Lock people in a house then burn it down.

Bullshit! As i whas saing before you are too fond of RuSSia propaganda mashine.

1 of may in Odessa has passed march of colorados, pro-ruSSian separatists. Peacefully.

Events of 2 of may in Odessa started with peacefull march of Odessa Chornomorets and Kharkiv Metalist football fans and just ukranian people. Idea whas to show that Ukraine is united. Meeting point whas at Soborna (United) Square.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/115192/115192_original.jpg

In the same time armed with baceball batts, clubs and axes thugs marked whith St George or red ribbons gathered at Oleksandriv'skyi Ave.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/112121/112121_original.jpg
Look at the cop.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/112288/112288_original.jpg
After that Maidan Selfdefence built a line of defense before ukranians.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/115423/115423_original.jpg
On picture below. Upper red line -- Maidan Selfdefence position, lower red arrow -- colorados progression.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/115901/115901_original.jpg
After first contact police at last handeled to make a "neutral" zone 50 meters long. Ellipses from top to bottom: Footbol fans and ukranian patriots; police; bandits.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/118134/118134_original.jpg
Parties startet to throwing each other various items.

On a parallel street appeared thugs with guns and molotov coctail.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/122393/122393_original.jpg
And police. They started to work together!!! Armed thugs opened fire from behind polece shields!
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/123442/123442_original.jpg
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/125621/125621_original.jpg
More pics. Separatis is shooting from trade center Aphina roof
http://img.pravda.com/images/doc/2/8/28a6b10-od-or.jpg
Thugs whith guns and ribbons
http://img.pravda.com/images/doc/a/0/a00b64e-od12.jpg
Cops whith same ribbons
http://img.pravda.com/images/doc/9/e/9e9216b-od-or2.jpg
Armed thugs and police chief together.
http://storage1.censor.net.ua/images/e/e/b/5/eeb5bba3db333fc9d36be2c38687ec41/640x360.jpg
http://storage1.censor.net.ua/images/1/e/f/2/1ef29eabd45bf8fb4d84639f5321c057/517x323.jpg
https://news.pn/photo/8e7597f93f14b1311498944eddbb76c5.i370x246x372.jpeg
After counteraеtack of fans colorados started retread covered by police forces. They choose to retread to Kulikovo Field where colorados camp whas lockated and then barricadet them selfs in those building. People saing that most of Antimaidan and separatists liders did not go with their folowers inside thouse building, after ukranian activists trashed their camp. Where it was found many filters to gas masks.

People started trowing molotov coctail at each other. Entrance doors catching fire. As you understand this is not the only exit from the building. Others ar still available for evac.
From the roof colorados are trowing coctails. Some of them are hitting external conditioner modules. Suddenly something started to burn at the 2 or 3 floor(flors are 4.5 meters high) BEHIND the untoutched windows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCyy1fPM ... ilpage#t=7

Next video shows how so called ukranian "nazis" are helping separatists get out of building, and finaly fire truck has arrived. Autor of this video says that he hopes they not leave because those idiots @ roof still trowing stones and coctails.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sBMnpcgxE

You may also google translate http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html More words and pictures.

Taras_Potatos wrote:Bullshit! As i whas saing before you are too fond of RuSSia propaganda mashine.

Unfortunately it is no bullshit at all.

Taras_Potatos wrote:After that Maidan Selfdefence built a line of defense before ukranians.

With a bunch of suitably nasty people who just happened to get bussed to Odessa from Kiev helping out from the goodness of their hearts?

Taras_Potatos wrote:And police. They started to work together!!! Armed thugs opened fire from behind polece shields!

Yes, the police is doing such a great job according to the chief of police who was recently doing a cheerleader chant for Ukrainian purity in front of a mob.

Taras_Potatos wrote:Armed thugs and police chief together.

Funny thing that, as you can find him being a BIG fan of the nationalist extremeists. Try youtube. They keep taking down the videos, but others keep putting more on there.

Taras_Potatos wrote:People started trowing molotov coctail at each other. Entrance doors catching fire. As you understand this is not the only exit from the building. Others ar still available for evac.

Check videos. All exits were covered by people with "blunt instruments" and a few people with guns.

Taras_Potatos wrote:Next video shows how so called ukranian "nazis" are helping separatists get out of building, and finaly fire truck has arrived. Autor of this video says that he hopes they not leave because those idiots @ roof still trowing stones and coctails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sBMnpcgxE

No, it´s showing some regular people. You can still sometimes hear the extremeists in the background. Find a video from another viewpoint at the same time and the picture is quite different.

Oh neat, at 11 minutes someone tries to throw a molotov cocktail into one of the windows with people in them.

Wow, how extremely helpful. They man doing so later smiles widely while standing in front of the camera talking to someone.

Not to mention the people patrolling around with baseball bats. And the two instances of gunfire heard. Sorry, make that 3 times with gunshots.
And someone just showed a moment on camera with a freakin sword...

Yes there are definitely people trying to help, but i think it´s rather hard to feel safe about going to them when there are people among them with baseball bats and they don´t seem to be more than mildly annoyed with the man trying to roast three people alive.

And i´m sure that chanting "U-kra-ina" is more important than actually rescuing the people trapped.

Or looting the local mail.

Oh yes, it´s great that some people helped. Problem is there 10 times as many people trying to get the trapped people killed, and probably 10 times THAT many more interested in watching the show or taking other opportunities.

And most telling? In the aftermath, what did the police do? Secure evidence? Hell no.

During the video there is at least two occasions of people on the ground throwing firebombs at the building, probably 3, visible. Not once does anything get thrown from the roof.
The people throwing, one is rebuffed by the people trying to do the rescue, the other two are pretty much ignored both by bystanders and police.

You just disproved your own point, bravo.

I already know that there´s lots of different people, and that most Ukrainians are just regular people.

What you apparently fail to see is that there isn´t TWO sides in this, there´s at least SIX, and only 2 of those want anything good for Ukraine. And that´s before counting the regular people that doesn´t want to get involved at all.

I already knew most of what you posted anyway, as i have my own sources.

I am not sure what your point is, Tenshinai. You seem to basically be saying 'go f*** yourself - it's your own fault that the Russians are getting their claws into eastern Ukraine'.

Maybe that's not what you want to say. But if it isn't then you may want to make clearer what your point really is - because it isn't getting across. Not for me at least.

I would be offended at your tone too if I were in Taras' shoes.

Tenshinai wrote:

Taras_Potatos wrote:Bullshit! As i whas saing before you are too fond of RuSSia propaganda mashine.

Unfortunately it is no bullshit at all.

Taras_Potatos wrote:After that Maidan Selfdefence built a line of defense before ukranians.

With a bunch of suitably nasty people who just happened to get bussed to Odessa from Kiev helping out from the goodness of their hearts?

Taras_Potatos wrote:And police. They started to work together!!! Armed thugs opened fire from behind polece shields!

Yes, the police is doing such a great job according to the chief of police who was recently doing a cheerleader chant for Ukrainian purity in front of a mob.

Taras_Potatos wrote:Armed thugs and police chief together.

Funny thing that, as you can find him being a BIG fan of the nationalist extremeists. Try youtube. They keep taking down the videos, but others keep putting more on there.

Taras_Potatos wrote:People started trowing molotov coctail at each other. Entrance doors catching fire. As you understand this is not the only exit from the building. Others ar still available for evac.

Check videos. All exits were covered by people with "blunt instruments" and a few people with guns.

Taras_Potatos wrote:Next video shows how so called ukranian "nazis" are helping separatists get out of building, and finaly fire truck has arrived. Autor of this video says that he hopes they not leave because those idiots @ roof still trowing stones and coctails.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sBMnpcgxE

No, it´s showing some regular people. You can still sometimes hear the extremeists in the background. Find a video from another viewpoint at the same time and the picture is quite different.

Oh neat, at 11 minutes someone tries to throw a molotov cocktail into one of the windows with people in them.

Wow, how extremely helpful. They man doing so later smiles widely while standing in front of the camera talking to someone.

Not to mention the people patrolling around with baseball bats. And the two instances of gunfire heard. Sorry, make that 3 times with gunshots.
And someone just showed a moment on camera with a freakin sword...

Yes there are definitely people trying to help, but i think it´s rather hard to feel safe about going to them when there are people among them with baseball bats and they don´t seem to be more than mildly annoyed with the man trying to roast three people alive.

And i´m sure that chanting "U-kra-ina" is more important than actually rescuing the people trapped.

Or looting the local mail.

Oh yes, it´s great that some people helped. Problem is there 10 times as many people trying to get the trapped people killed, and probably 10 times THAT many more interested in watching the show or taking other opportunities.

And most telling? In the aftermath, what did the police do? Secure evidence? Hell no.

During the video there is at least two occasions of people on the ground throwing firebombs at the building, probably 3, visible. Not once does anything get thrown from the roof.
The people throwing, one is rebuffed by the people trying to do the rescue, the other two are pretty much ignored both by bystanders and police.

You just disproved your own point, bravo.

I already know that there´s lots of different people, and that most Ukrainians are just regular people.

What you apparently fail to see is that there isn´t TWO sides in this, there´s at least SIX, and only 2 of those want anything good for Ukraine. And that´s before counting the regular people that doesn´t want to get involved at all.

I already knew most of what you posted anyway, as i have my own sources.

Bruno Behrends wrote:I am not sure what your point is, Tenshinai. You seem to basically be saying 'go f*** yourself - it's your own fault that the Russians are getting their claws into eastern Ukraine'.

Maybe that's not what you want to say. But if it isn't then you may want to make clearer what your point really is - because it isn't getting across. Not for me at least.

I would be offended at your tone too if I were in Taras' shoes.

So you´re saying it´s fine with him being offensive at me, but not the other way around?

While trying to deny that something extremely nasty happened and still put the blame for what didn´t really happen on those icky "them" who obviously can´t be nice fluffy Ukrainians...

And then he tries to prove it by means of a video that repeatedly shows that his claims are rubbish.

An aquintance of mine called it "Yugoslavia 2.0 in the making" and sadly, Taras seems to confirm that.


And what you refuse to see is that the whole propaganda circus is so utterly full of crap that it´s embarassing that people actually believe it.

Simple truth 1: It is not in the interest of Russia to make waves in Ukraine. Ukraine has a BIG minority asking for a looser federalist state/independence/reverting to Russia that the central government has been grinding under its heel for 2 decades by now, regardless of which corrupt politician is in charge. Russia has all the support it could ever want from at least 1/3, more like 1/2 of what was Ukraine.

Simple truth 2: Ukraine´s current government is illegal. It´s the result of a regime change sponsored by USA and parts of EU, with both yours and my own nation being big on the guilt for that, and if you think i´m being offensive here, you should see what i´m writing in Swedish about Carl Bildt. What i write here doesn´t even scratch the paint.

And so now we have a "government" who gained power by force and violence, where one of the most influential parties is one that when it was created, intentionally and specifically modelled itself on the NSDAP, including stormtrooper and SS sections. You think that´s a good idea?

Sorry but i would rather not have "governments" like that around. And i´m quite disgusted that my own government has been a small but active part in making it happen.

Excerpt from a statement by the Ukrainian minister of the interior "-for them there is only one answer from the Ukrainian nation - annihilation." translated more than once, but the point is rather clear.
He´s referring to separatists, those hundreds of thousands of people that are suddenly evil terrorists. Well, separatists and federalists and pro-Russia folks.

your own fault that the Russians are getting their claws into eastern Ukraine

Just the fact that you phrase it like that shows you´re buying the propaganda war.

Kiev and it´s corruption IS in many ways directly to blame for what has happened, but outside forces, NOT aligned with Russia, far more still.