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Out of order snippet

Aliens? Invading aliens? What will Earth do? Well...we may have a few more resources than we first thought. Come join a friendly discussion about David Weber's newest Tor series - "Out of the Dark."
Re: Out of order snippet
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Tue May 28, 2019 10:38 am

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Of course, the "third party" may be an alien AI hidden on the Moon who wants mankind to avenge the destruction of its makers.

I suppose that Moon is actually a hidden alien warship but surely David Weber wouldn't do that. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Joat42 wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:IMO Something genetic likely wouldn't be detected so quickly.

As for "where did the nanotech come from", that question is likely what everybody is asking (in the book).

Some of MWW hints implied that somebody was meddling on Earth.

He also said a lot more was going that was obvious.

Considering that the Shongairi was very surprised by the techlevel which was then confirmed in the ITL snippets when they dug through the database I wouldn't be surprised that the Hegemony-scouts are shadowed by a third party with an interest in undermining the Hegemony.

This make me think of 2 scenarios:
  1. The unknown 3rd party did some genetic tinkering to increase intelligence by releasing for example a retro-virus.
  2. The unknown 3rd party have had agents on Earth making sure we progress faster than expected.

Then we come to Vlad and the "Vampires", it's the other thing the 3rd party did - it's their variant of a super-soldier and Vlad is the human prototype. His powers doesn't necessarily need to be technological in origin.

Although, the most important and interesting question has little to do with humanity's technological progress or "vampires". The question is:

What is the goal of the 3rd party? Is it only to break the status quo of the Hegemony and it's grip on the galaxy or is this a prelude to a hostile takeover?

Either way, humanity is currently just a pawn in an intergalactic gambit and it is going to be interesting to see if humanity is still a pawn when the dust settles.
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 28, 2019 3:55 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:<snip>

Either way, humanity is currently just a pawn in an intergalactic gambit and it is going to be interesting to see if humanity is still a pawn when the dust settles.


Given the first words, after the chapter name, are:

Planet Earth
Year 1 of the Terran Empire


I believe we know the answer to that question.

----

You missed 2 questions - Who is this 3rd party and what is their current relationship with the Galactic Hedgemony? From the first book, the Shongari seemed to be the biggest rabble-rousers on the Galactic Stage. who could be around, have the technical capability, and the desire to develop Humanity in secret?
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Joat42   » Tue May 28, 2019 5:26 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Joat42 wrote:<snip>

Either way, humanity is currently just a pawn in an intergalactic gambit and it is going to be interesting to see if humanity is still a pawn when the dust settles.


Given the first words, after the chapter name, are:

Planet Earth
Year 1 of the Terran Empire


I believe we know the answer to that question.

It's not like we have been bamboozled before, and if the chapter was named "Year 1 of the Fallen Terran Empire" it would be a give away.

Theemile wrote:You missed 2 questions - Who is this 3rd party and what is their current relationship with the Galactic Hedgemony? From the first book, the Shongari seemed to be the biggest rabble-rousers on the Galactic Stage. who could be around, have the technical capability, and the desire to develop Humanity in secret?

No, it's implicit in my question since it relates to the goal of the 3rd party.

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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 29, 2019 7:57 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Theemile wrote:

You missed 2 questions - Who is this 3rd party and what is their current relationship with the Galactic Hedgemony? From the first book, the Shongari seemed to be the biggest rabble-rousers on the Galactic Stage. who could be around, have the technical capability, and the desire to develop Humanity in secret?


No, it's implicit in my question since it relates to the goal of the 3rd party.


Yes, but the millenium spanning Monolithic quality of the Hedgemony in the first book makes those foundation questions all the more poignant. The Hedgemony apparently squashed all possible competition before they could become anywhere near peer competitors, and apparently actively contained all the advanced races in this Galactic region which were allowed to obtain spaceflight. Most importantly, the values of the Hedgemony member races, with the exception of the Shongairi, appeared (from the glimpse afforded us) to be aligned.

All of which deepen the mystery around this 3rd party or 5th column.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by FriarBob   » Wed May 29, 2019 10:47 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Theemile wrote:quote="Joat42"<snip>

Either way, humanity is currently just a pawn in an intergalactic gambit and it is going to be interesting to see if humanity is still a pawn when the dust settles./quote

Given the first words, after the chapter name, are:

Planet Earth
Year 1 of the Terran Empire


I believe we know the answer to that question.

It's not like we have been bamboozled before, and if the chapter was named "Year 1 of the Fallen Terran Empire" it would be a give away.


Y'all are technically both correct. Even to this day nobody calls it "Year 1 of the Fallen Roman Republic". But there still was a year one of it. And it's still (very) fallen, fully dead and buried.

But if someone was going to write some historical fiction about something that (supposedly) happened back then, they would use a header at least somewhat similar to "City of Rome, Year 1 of the Roman Republic".

The Terran Empire may or may not survive long term. Might even do so against the wishes of this mysterious third party you posit (which may or may not actually exist anymore anyway). But whether or not the Empire does survive, the only information that we have at this point is it will last long enough to assign a "year 1" to itself.

(Mind you, MWW is not GRRM, so the odds of it surviving are fairly high. But they are still not 100%.)
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 29, 2019 11:42 am

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FriarBob wrote:Y'all are technically both correct. Even to this day nobody calls it "Year 1 of the Fallen Roman Republic". But there still was a year one of it. And it's still (very) fallen, fully dead and buried.

But if someone was going to write some historical fiction about something that (supposedly) happened back then, they would use a header at least somewhat similar to "City of Rome, Year 1 of the Roman Republic".

The Terran Empire may or may not survive long term. Might even do so against the wishes of this mysterious third party you posit (which may or may not actually exist anymore anyway). But whether or not the Empire does survive, the only information that we have at this point is it will last long enough to assign a "year 1" to itself.

(Mind you, MWW is not GRRM, so the odds of it surviving are fairly high. But they are still not 100%.)


I'm not attempting to say the Terran Empire will last into eternity - but merely that the next time there is a pause in Galactic events, it appears Humanity will be controlling it's future, not someone else. How long that lasts is another, yet untold story.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by DrakBibliophile   » Wed May 29, 2019 12:31 pm

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Just a thought, "Terran Empire" may just be the term for the "one world government" that is to protect Earth from outsiders. :lol:

Theemile wrote:
FriarBob wrote:Y'all are technically both correct. Even to this day nobody calls it "Year 1 of the Fallen Roman Republic". But there still was a year one of it. And it's still (very) fallen, fully dead and buried.

But if someone was going to write some historical fiction about something that (supposedly) happened back then, they would use a header at least somewhat similar to "City of Rome, Year 1 of the Roman Republic".

The Terran Empire may or may not survive long term. Might even do so against the wishes of this mysterious third party you posit (which may or may not actually exist anymore anyway). But whether or not the Empire does survive, the only information that we have at this point is it will last long enough to assign a "year 1" to itself.

(Mind you, MWW is not GRRM, so the odds of it surviving are fairly high. But they are still not 100%.)


I'm not attempting to say the Terran Empire will last into eternity - but merely that the next time there is a pause in Galactic events, it appears Humanity will be controlling it's future, not someone else. How long that lasts is another, yet untold story.
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 29, 2019 1:25 pm

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DrakBibliophile wrote:Just a thought, "Terran Empire" may just be the term for the "one world government" that is to protect Earth from outsiders. :lol:


True, but I would expect that, given the circumstances, the original name for the new world government would be less.... despotic?

"Terran Empire" feels more like an appellation hung on the time epoch by a later historian than the title a self government of disparate survivors attempting to be a democracy would choose for itself.

And I believe we can all agree, no one walking around in the ashes of the Shongairi invasion is calling it 1 year Terran Empire, any more than anyone in Judea was discussing the merits of living in 1 AD. Such breaks from a former dating system is all a contrivance of "future" historians, not those living it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by FriarBob   » Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

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Theemile wrote:
DrakBibliophile wrote:Just a thought, "Terran Empire" may just be the term for the "one world government" that is to protect Earth from outsiders. :lol:


True, but I would expect that, given the circumstances, the original name for the new world government would be less.... despotic?

"Terran Empire" feels more like an appellation hung on the time epoch by a later historian than the title a self government of disparate survivors attempting to be a democracy would choose for itself.


At least within recorded history the preponderance of evidence would not appear to be in your favor. Societies attempting to rebuild after invasions or other major disasters rarely had LESS autocratic/despotic/etc. styles of government than they did before. Usually even justifiably so, after all there are major issues to clean up and some rather significant degrees of autocracy/strong-executive is all-but inevitable.

And there is nothing that pulls former enemies together faster (or more firmly, even militantly so) than a common enemy. And do they ever have one of those! One so immense that just to have a chance to survive they will have to go full-bore empire sooner or later.

Even if by some miracle this is the exception that [tests] the rule, that doesn't preclude an empire with (attempts at) democratic principles. The Roman Empire was no less an empire for doing the same (by their lights at least). For that matter, this is Weber we're talking about. How many of his governments were not empires again? At least eventually? None come to mind at the moment. How many of them were entirely devoid of democratic principles? Second verse same as the first. Even the Excalibur Alternative got there eventually (on both counts, actually). (BTW, anyone else think OOTD might just be to EA as Safehold is to Heirs of Empire?)

Theemile wrote:And I believe we can all agree, no one walking around in the ashes of the Shongairi invasion is calling it 1 year Terran Empire, any more than anyone in Judea was discussing the merits of living in 1 AD. Such breaks from a former dating system is all a contrivance of "future" historians, not those living it.


Some of the time, yes. 1AD was not recognized for centuries after that point. But many (likely most) emperors in the history of mankind -- especially those setting up a new dynasty -- have decreed a new dating system shortly after gaining power. (For that matter, so was 1AD. They just didn't date things from their 'ascension' to the 'throne'.)

No one in the backwoods barely clinging to survival is calling it the Terran Empire (or year 1 of it). But some of those in the 'pockets' of functional 'civilization' may well be. Even if not, for this to be year one of it the formal creation of it -- or at least the beginning of the process thereof -- must be sometime in this calendar year. Which means it's coming soon. Whether the dating system will be changed immediately or not is pretty flat-out immaterial.
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Re: Out of order snippet
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 29, 2019 3:54 pm

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FriarBob wrote:
Theemile wrote:And I believe we can all agree, no one walking around in the ashes of the Shongairi invasion is calling it 1 year Terran Empire, any more than anyone in Judea was discussing the merits of living in 1 AD. Such breaks from a former dating system is all a contrivance of "future" historians, not those living it.


Some of the time, yes. 1AD was not recognized for centuries after that point. But many (likely most) emperors in the history of mankind -- especially those setting up a new dynasty -- have decreed a new dating system shortly after gaining power. (For that matter, so was 1AD. They just didn't date things from their 'ascension' to the 'throne'.)

No one in the backwoods barely clinging to survival is calling it the Terran Empire (or year 1 of it). But some of those in the 'pockets' of functional 'civilization' may well be. Even if not, for this to be year one of it the formal creation of it -- or at least the beginning of the process thereof -- must be sometime in this calendar year. Which means it's coming soon. Whether the dating system will be changed immediately or not is pretty flat-out immaterial.


Ah, but in those cases, an emperor or king or whoever starting the dating process on his birth/throne ascention/wolf killing/whatever was the normal dating process. His father did it - his son will do the same. You were born in the 4th year of the reign of Claudius, and married in the 12 year of his replacement. The names were "tab" markers in the same system, not a complete break.

Like BC/AD, This would a complete replacement of the current system. If anything people would be referring to the number of years since the Shongairi invasion for awhile, Not the start of the Terran Empire or whatever it is initially named.

My initial point (obviously missed) was the name appears to be from a future context, with a Historian derived dating system and possible title which may be different than the actual governmental title. Yes, I could be wrong, But David is known to write from an future historical point of view in previews and openings - like the Honorverse Book intro to the Mayan Crises from Ceres Press in the 2050s PD.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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