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Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?

Aliens? Invading aliens? What will Earth do? Well...we may have a few more resources than we first thought. Come join a friendly discussion about David Weber's newest Tor series - "Out of the Dark."
Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:54 am

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In Chapter 3 of _Out of the Dark_, as part of the Shongairi discussion of the extraordinarily rapid technology development of a planet they expected to only see black powder weapons at most, they mention the previous record holder of rapid development, the Ugartu, who did the Hegemony a big favor by destroying themselves in a nuclear war. Or did they?

The Shongairi were in the habit of expressing contempt for all the herbivore races in the Hegemony, but it is our experience that some herd herbivores (especially big ones) on Earth will attack threats and stomp them in the ground.

Thus, I wonder if one of those herbivore races had burnt off the Ugartu system before they would become a problem. Or at least tried to, perhaps there were some survivors.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by Isilith   » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:45 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:In Chapter 3 of _Out of the Dark_, as part of the Shongairi discussion of the extraordinarily rapid technology development of a planet they expected to only see black powder weapons at most, they mention the previous record holder of rapid development, the Ugartu, who did the Hegemony a big favor by destroying themselves in a nuclear war. Or did they?

The Shongairi were in the habit of expressing contempt for all the herbivore races in the Hegemony, but it is our experience that some herd herbivores (especially big ones) on Earth will attack threats and stomp them in the ground.

Thus, I wonder if one of those herbivore races had burnt off the Ugartu system before they would become a problem. Or at least tried to, perhaps there were some survivors.


This seems to be a reach, a pretty big reach. The Ugartu were destroyed BEFORE they developed space flight and FTL. Not only that, they were observed and catalogued by the Hegemony, meaning if we/Earth were their descendants, we would be recognized as such.
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Re: Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:20 am

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Isilith wrote:
Robert_A_Woodward wrote:In Chapter 3 of _Out of the Dark_, as part of the Shongairi discussion of the extraordinarily rapid technology development of a planet they expected to only see black powder weapons at most, they mention the previous record holder of rapid development, the Ugartu, who did the Hegemony a big favor by destroying themselves in a nuclear war. Or did they?

The Shongairi were in the habit of expressing contempt for all the herbivore races in the Hegemony, but it is our experience that some herd herbivores (especially big ones) on Earth will attack threats and stomp them in the ground.

Thus, I wonder if one of those herbivore races had burnt off the Ugartu system before they would become a problem. Or at least tried to, perhaps there were some survivors.


This seems to be a reach, a pretty big reach. The Ugartu were destroyed BEFORE they developed space flight and FTL. Not only that, they were observed and catalogued by the Hegemony, meaning if we/Earth were their descendants, we would be recognized as such.


According to chapter IV, the Ugartu turned their home star system into a radioactive junkyard. That strongly suggests they achieved spaceflight (whether they had discovered FTL is purely speculation on my part). BTW, you missed my point. I am not thinking of the Ugartu as ancestors; I am thinking of hypothetical Ugartu survivors of being potential allies against the Hegemony.
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by jtg452   » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:33 am

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My understanding of the passage was that they wiped themselves out prior to extraterrestrial contact and prior to their achieving transtellar travel- which would have made them a threat to other civilizations.

Also, weren't they also omnivores, not herbivores?

I thought that the prevailing opinion in the Hegemony was that omnivores were inherently unstable and we were the first to survive to advance enough to be contacted- even if it was just to be invaded and subjugated. That inherent instability was one of the reasons that there was no interference in the invasion. I was under the impression that the prevailing opinion was that it would be better for us to be a subjugated race rather than a potentially dangerous independent one when we finally figured out transtellar travel.
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Re: Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:12 am

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jtg452 wrote:My understanding of the passage was that they wiped themselves out prior to extraterrestrial contact and prior to their achieving transtellar travel- which would have made them a threat to other civilizations.

Also, weren't they also omnivores, not herbivores?

I thought that the prevailing opinion in the Hegemony was that omnivores were inherently unstable and we were the first to survive to advance enough to be contacted- even if it was just to be invaded and subjugated. That inherent instability was one of the reasons that there was no interference in the invasion. I was under the impression that the prevailing opinion was that it would be better for us to be a subjugated race rather than a potentially dangerous independent one when we finally figured out transtellar travel.


The Ugartu system was slagged. Since nobody in the Hegemony admitted to the deed, it is assumed that the Ugartu committed racial suicide. I am not saying that this is false; I am merely wondering if it is.

Also, there are omnivore races* in the Hegemony, the Shongairi appears to be the only carnivores. Upon checking, it appears that the carnivores were the ones considered to be inherently unstable.

*_Out of the Dark_ implies that over half of the members of the Hegemony were omnivores.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Could this be a Gun on the Mantle?
Post by Garth 2   » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:20 am

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I always took it that the Shongairi External Intelligence Agency postulated that one or more members of the Hegemony had dealt with the Ugartu before they became a threat but the evidence indicated it was self inflicted especially as I got the impression that this had happened before the Shongairi joined the Hegemony and the "secret orders" were added to the survey teams remits
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