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Green Haven Rescue Operation -

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Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by Garth 2   » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:05 am

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Why did the Cadre forget basic stuff??

So re-reading "In Fury Born" and got to the Green Haven rescue operation and started to wonder why did the Cadre get it so wrong and it's not actually the faulty intelligence from Watts (though that obviously didn't help) it was poor planning and over confidence.

They were in orbit for multiple circuits (a total of three full nights) and not once did they go, "You know lets send a team covertly down to the planet and take a look before we drop in on the party"

They turned up and took everything at face value from HQ and did no basic intelligence gathering in system.

Surely, a covert operations vessel pretending to be a cargo ship would have a cargo shuttle onboard that could be sent down for a legitimate reason and a team quietly does a HALO insertion, moves up to the Green Haven estate and does a mark 1 (or 2, 3) eyeball of what they are up against......
Last edited by Garth 2 on Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:12 am

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Garth 2 wrote:Why did the Cadre forget basic stuff??

So re-reading "In Fury Born" and got to the Green Haven rescue operation and started to wonder why did the Cadre get so wrong and it's not actually the faulty intelligence from Watts (though that obviously didn't help) it was poor planning and over confidence.

They were in orbit for multiple circuits (a total of three full nights) and not once did they go, "You know lets send a team covertly down to the planet and take a look before we drop in on the party"

They turned up and took everything at face value from HQ and did no basic intelligence gathering in system.

Surely, a covert operations vessel pretending to be a cargo ship would have a cargo shuttle onboard that could be sent down for a legitimate reason and a team quietly does a HALO insertion, moves up to the Green Haven estate and does a mark 1 (or 2, 3) eyeball of what they are up against......


I don't think it would be wise for a shuttle from a starship that just arrived in system to even come within a 100 kilometers of that location. OTOH, where are the passive sensors? They should have been able to look at the possible landing sites and the target at 10 cm resolution (or better). Though, considering the sophistication of the setup, perhaps camouflage would had been good enough to conceal all that hardware.
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:10 am

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I agree flight path for the shuttle would be controlled from ground side and due to the security alert would be away from (and not an overflight of) the target area but then in text a "covert drop" is detailed as being virtually undetectable.
So for me,
Step 1 - Load shuttle with suitable material to justify flight
Step 2 - Covert HALO insertion of squad at suitable altitude
Step 3 - Covert landing and "hid" set-up to confirm no contact from either local security forces or terrorist members
Note: During this step, the rest of the company is in the tubes in "heavy configuration" for rapid deployment/rescue operation
Step 4 - Covert march to target area and observation
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 5 - Covert extraction from target area
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 6 - Report to ship, what was observed on ground
Step 6a - Squad on the ground goes dark and re-enters operation area to maintain "eyes on target"
Step 7 - Complete reshaping of operation, based on real data and assumption the Duke and members of government/advisors must be involved
Step 8 - Empire taskforce/fleet moves in and blockades planet
Step 9 - FAL operation complete crushed, with no Cadre massacre

Admittedly not so dramatic but more inline with a "state of the art" Spec ops unit.
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by WeberFan   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:40 am

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Perhaps true all above. But my impression is that the Cadre is the bulldozer. A pre-assault sneak would more likely be done by some of the Recon Marines. I don't recall seeing anywhere in the book(s) that the Cadre did any of their own recon before their assaults.

Obviously (and in hindsight) a sneak would have been appropriate. But they relied on their preexisting intel.
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:02 pm

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Garth 2 wrote:I agree flight path for the shuttle would be controlled from ground side and due to the security alert would be away from (and not an overflight of) the target area but then in text a "covert drop" is detailed as being virtually undetectable.
So for me,
Step 1 - Load shuttle with suitable material to justify flight
Step 2 - Covert HALO insertion of squad at suitable altitude
Step 3 - Covert landing and "hid" set-up to confirm no contact from either local security forces or terrorist members
Note: During this step, the rest of the company is in the tubes in "heavy configuration" for rapid deployment/rescue operation
Step 4 - Covert march to target area and observation
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 5 - Covert extraction from target area
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 6 - Report to ship, what was observed on ground
Step 6a - Squad on the ground goes dark and re-enters operation area to maintain "eyes on target"
Step 7 - Complete reshaping of operation, based on real data and assumption the Duke and members of government/advisors must be involved
Step 8 - Empire taskforce/fleet moves in and blockades planet

Step 8a FAL massacres all of the hostages- mission is a complete failure
Garth 2 wrote:
Step 9 - FAL operation complete crushed, with no Cadre massacre

Admittedly not so dramatic but more inline with a "state of the art" Spec ops unit.
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by Garth 2   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:59 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:I agree flight path for the shuttle would be controlled from ground side and due to the security alert would be away from (and not an overflight of) the target area but then in text a "covert drop" is detailed as being virtually undetectable.
So for me,
Step 1 - Load shuttle with suitable material to justify flight
Step 2 - Covert HALO insertion of squad at suitable altitude
Step 3 - Covert landing and "hid" set-up to confirm no contact from either local security forces or terrorist members
Note: During this step, the rest of the company is in the tubes in "heavy configuration" for rapid deployment/rescue operation
Step 4 - Covert march to target area and observation
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 5 - Covert extraction from target area
Note: Remaining squads of the Company in tubes in rotation
Step 6 - Report to ship, what was observed on ground
Step 6a - Squad on the ground goes dark and re-enters operation area to maintain "eyes on target"
Step 7 - Complete reshaping of operation, based on real data and assumption the Duke and members of government/advisors must be involved
Step 8 - Empire taskforce/fleet moves in and blockades planet

Step 8a FAL massacres all of the hostages- mission is a complete failure
Garth 2 wrote:
Step 9 - FAL operation complete crushed, with no Cadre massacre

Admittedly not so dramatic but more inline with a "state of the art" Spec ops unit.


Presumably :lol: the Cadre mission occurs in step 7, with step 8 the follow-up (as the battlecruiser was already on route) occurring to stop the "government advisor" getting away.

If the Empire policy is to treats it's enemies friends as enemies the "Green Haven" Government (a separate political unit from the Fuller System Government) would move everything not to be held accountable for the FAL operation that managed to by-pass their own inhouse security operations, especially, if the Fuller government turns on them to prove their own innocence ;)
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Re: Green Haven Rescue Operation -
Post by Garth 2   » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:06 am

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WeberFan wrote:Perhaps true all above. But my impression is that the Cadre is the bulldozer. A pre-assault sneak would more likely be done by some of the Recon Marines. I don't recall seeing anywhere in the book(s) that the Cadre did any of their own recon before their assaults.

Obviously (and in hindsight) a sneak would have been appropriate. But they relied on their preexisting intel.


I think your under-estimating the versatility of Special forces groups, especially given the level the Cadre operate at.
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