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Son of GOD EXISTS

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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by The E   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:13 am

The E
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I asked whether you found evidence that the axioms that underpin Godels theorem are true. You said you were working on them, which to me means "no"; As any serious student of math knows, if your axioms are faulty then it doesn't matter how elegant or complete your theorem is because it will never be valid.

And, I just have to ask this again, what's your plan of action if your attempt to prove those axioms fails? Or is failure just not an option in this endeavour?

Or, to put it more disrespectfully, do you possess the intellectual honesty of accepting a negative result?
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:08 am

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Sigh.

In science, no matter how many arguments we have for some hypotesis, one definite counter-argument is enough to disprive it.

So:

God is supposed to be omnipotent. So, could the omnipotent god create a stone that he - omnipotent god - could not lift?

Congratulations, we just get this one definite counter-argument.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:46 am

cthia
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The E wrote:I asked whether you found evidence that the axioms that underpin Godels theorem are true. You said you were working on them, which to me means "no"; As any serious student of math knows, if your axioms are faulty then it doesn't matter how elegant or complete your theorem is because it will never be valid.

And, I just have to ask this again, what's your plan of action if your attempt to prove those axioms fails? Or is failure just not an option in this endeavour?

Or, to put it more disrespectfully, do you possess the intellectual honesty of accepting a negative result?


You seem to be lacking a solid grasp of the discussion at hand. Godel's theorems are not in question and are pretty much written in stone. What I've presented here is actually Godel's theory.

You reproduced the error again. The gargantuan task I've undertaken has, at its core, my own theory and not theorems.

Will I accept failure in this endeavor? Absolutely. My goals are truth oriented only. But perhaps you are asking whether a failure here will lead to my renouncing my faith in God. If so, why should it?

Also, I've had to rewrite parts of my theory already that were actually a result of fundamental errors in my overall logic. Which the formal system of logic made plain and clear. Formal systems of logic are quite powerful, and any errors of the fundamental building blocks will show themselves in the end. Oftentimes, as in my case, there is an epiphany. Will I give up as a result of failure? Again, no. Why? Because I have a logical mind, and the truth is obvious to me, even if I did not actually already believe in God.

AND the fact that I am seeking to prove the existence of God, not disprove.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:00 pm

cthia
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Dilandu wrote:Sigh.

In science, no matter how many arguments we have for some hypotesis, one definite counter-argument is enough to disprive it.

So:

God is supposed to be omnipotent. So, could the omnipotent god create a stone that he - omnipotent god - could not lift?

Congratulations, we just get this one definite counter-argument.


Me own sigh.

Yes, he can. If he chooses to, which is the definition of all powerful, but then why wouldn't he be able to simply unspeak what has been spoken? Is man the only creature that can change his mind, if he wants to?

Can God destroy the world again by water even though he said he wouldn't? Which would make him out of a liar?

Can God kill himself if he is omnipotent and all powerful and considering "thou shalt not kill?"

Can God commit sin?

Your questions are not unique.


Plus! Essentially God has already done what you have asked. God created a Son that he allowed to become so overburdened with sin that he could not lift it. He couldn't even look upon him. It was in the hands of his Son, Jesus. Literally in his hands. Nailed into his wrists.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by The E   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:24 pm

The E
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cthia wrote:Will I give up as a result of failure? Again, no. Why? Because I have a logical mind, and the truth is obvious to me, even if I did not actually already believe in God.

AND the fact that I am seeking to prove the existence of God, not disprove.


And that answers the question of your intellectual honesty, or rather your lack of it. You aren't looking for truth, you're looking for affirmation; you already think you know the truth and are just looking for confirmation of it. A true truthseeker, following the concept you've named yourself after, wouldn't presume to know whatever he's going to find at the end of the journey.

Feel free to further disparage me, my opinions, or my logic. Claim I'm inexperienced, too young or too arrogant to see your truth for what it is; it won't matter to me. After all, here's the fundamental difference: if you could show me, today, a complete and unassailable proof, peer reviewed and trivially reproducible, I would change my mind about the whole thing. But you can't, by your own admission. You're too afraid to even share basic information about your methodology, the avenues you're pursuing, or the intermediary results you've obtained (unless, of course, you've been running a blog somewhere you just never told anyone about).

Unless you're open to the idea that you are fundamentally wrong, you will never be able to see truth.
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:29 pm

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cthia wrote:
Yes, he can. If he chooses to, which is the definition of all powerful, but then why wouldn't he be able to simply unspeak what has been spoken? Is man the only cr


Nah, not gonna buy it. Omnipotence means - quite definitely - that such being must be able to do everything, including lifting any stone. Thus the creation of stone, that omnipotent being could not lift could not be possible by the aforementioned being - but this automatically means, that the being in question is not omnipotent. And so on, and so on.

In short - omnipotence is fundamentally illogical. There is no way around it, you could fit supposedly-omnipotent being into any logical model.

That's a good lesson to you about using logical arguments. You could not use logic to define something, that by definition exist outside said logic. Do not repeat such mistake, please. :D
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:37 pm

Dilandu
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Posts: 1476
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

The E wrote:
Feel free to further disparage me, my opinions, or my logic


Sorry, there is no logic to talk about in this theme. Just a bunch of age-old demagogue, that were used by clergy anytime when peoples started to wonder "do we really need to feed all this bunch of so-called "servants of god", who almost never follow the rules they themselves proclaim as divine?"

Yes, humans NEED to believe in something greater than they are. This is fundamental part of our psychology. But problem is, as XX century proved - there is no reason why we should believe in supernatural creatures to be perfectly fine. Believing in the brighter future, build by our efforts in present, is perfectly fine too.
Last edited by Dilandu on Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:06 pm

Dilandu
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Posts: 1476
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm
Location: Russia

P.S. There was an old fiction story in one of Soviet-era magazines. The plot was: in the future, mankind discovered time travels, started to explore ancient history - and found that the men, which would be known as Jesus actually existed... but died from accident before actually preforming anything. The whole history of humanity have a gaping hole in it. So, in desperate attempt to save known history, future scientists created a high-tech android, which went to the past, preformed miracles, gathered followers, was crucified, "returned to life", ect., ect., ect. The mankind history was saved.

The story ended with future scientists pondering a question: does their actions prove that Christianity was the only definitely false-based religion - or the only definitely truth-based one?
------------------------------

- Who would won in battle between strawman Liberal-Democrat and strawman Conservative-Republican?
- Scarecrow from Oz; he was strawman before it became political.

P.S. - And he have Russian twin, to watch his back)
Top
Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:08 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10462
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The E wrote:
cthia wrote:Will I give up as a result of failure? Again, no. Why? Because I have a logical mind, and the truth is obvious to me, even if I did not actually already believe in God.

AND the fact that I am seeking to prove the existence of God, not disprove.


And that answers the question of your intellectual honesty, or rather your lack of it. You aren't looking for truth, you're looking for affirmation; you already think you know the truth and are just looking for confirmation of it. A true truthseeker, following the concept you've named yourself after, wouldn't presume to know whatever he's going to find at the end of the journey.

Feel free to further disparage me, my opinions, or my logic. Claim I'm inexperienced, too young or too arrogant to see your truth for what it is; it won't matter to me. After all, here's the fundamental difference: if you could show me, today, a complete and unassailable proof, peer reviewed and trivially reproducible, I would change my mind about the whole thing. But you can't, by your own admission. You're too afraid to even share basic information about your methodology, the avenues you're pursuing, or the intermediary results you've obtained (unless, of course, you've been running a blog somewhere you just never told anyone about).

Unless you're open to the idea that you are fundamentally wrong, you will never be able to see truth.


Why should confidence in my theory cast any aspersions on my intellectual honesty??? In fact, isn't confidence a necessary requirement to success? Do you think Einstein or any of the backs of great men, lacked confidence, or could be built upon - if they were NOT so rooted? :scratches head and ass:: Your logic truly makes them both itch.

Spending decades and many man hours on something I half-ass believe in is truly insane. If you're going to begin making sense, now would be a good time because you're losing me. Whereas I've been trying to do what you accused me of not doing. Entertain someone else's opinions. Which I've always done whether you care to admit it or not. But please, at least. . .deliver.

You've always ran from the truth. Since I posted that "proof" you're running like a "scaldy dog."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Son of GOD EXISTS
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:13 pm

cthia
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Posts: 10462
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

About not believing in the statistics leg of science that most of mankind believe in God.

Someone suggested that you may be gaining ground. In case of overtaking us, is that the time you will accept statistics as a creditable tool to speak on this subject? LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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