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The Four Horsemen

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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by cthia   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:15 am

cthia
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Imaginos1892 wrote:
cthia wrote:It is not a difficult question at all Imaginos...

Do you want there to be a God or not? Yes or no.

No, it's not difficult, it's merely irrelevant. The existence or non-existence of a god is not dependent on my opinion. Or on yours. Or anybody's. God is, or not, independent of what anybody thinks.

Problem is, there's no observable, verifiable evidence to base any opinion on. Without such evidence, it is foolish to assume that an entity with all those detailed characteristics you attribute to your god exists just because you want it to be so. Or because a lot of people want it to be so. Or to assume that your god, or some different god, or gods, don't exist. Without evidence, we can't know the answer. You and a lot of other people may harbor an unfounded belief, but that is not knowledge.

Some of the best tap dancing I've seen. Give all three of 'em a hand, ladies and gentlemen.


It is not irrelevant according to the book. Jesus says -

Matthew 7:7-12 7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:40 am

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And there you go again, being rude and insulting and posting meaningless quotes from ancient mythology. Can’t you come up with words of your own? Do you have to have all your arguments, all your ideas, supplied to you by a bunch of primitive, superstitious, long-dead old men? Can you not see that the universe is so much bigger than what they knew, break free from the limits of their ignorance?

I’m afraid that I don’t believe in a god so weak and fragile that his existence depends on my opinion. That would take a whole shitload of evidence.
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I used to live on a farm. I know what bullshit smells like.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:15 am

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pappilon wrote: the real and totally accurate History of the Middle East 3588 BC-500 AD.

There is little from that era that is the "totally accurate History", especially the "history" those were tales written down to glorify whatever king/pharaoh/whatever the writer didn't want chopping off his head.
pappilon wrote:...whatever languages these tales were orally told until somebody actually wrote them down in. Then were translated into Greek then into Latin then into "the Vernacular".

NO, the New Testament was written in Ancient Greek and Hebrew by the people who were there, not "ancient tales told to others".
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by pappilon   » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:27 am

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MAD-4A wrote:
pappilon wrote: the real and totally accurate History of the Middle East 3588 BC-500 AD.

There is little from that era that is the "totally accurate History", especially the "history" those were tales written down to glorify whatever king/pharaoh/whatever the writer didn't want chopping off his head.
pappilon wrote:...whatever languages these tales were orally told until somebody actually wrote them down in. Then were translated into Greek then into Latin then into "the Vernacular".

NO, the New Testament was written in Ancient Greek and Hebrew by the people who were there, not "ancient tales told to others".


Written about 100 years after the death of Jesus in ancient Greek and Hebrew, then. Translated during the Reign of the Catholic Church as it transitioned from Jewish heresy to Greek Mystery religion under the aegis of Saul-the-Assassin to official religion of the Roman Empire and translated to the official language of The Empire-Latin. No telling what changes were demanded by Theodoseus at the council of Nicea.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:20 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:We most certainly can see air. Chill it to -220 degrees and it condenses into liquid nitrogen and liquid oxygen. You can see the difference because the liquid oxygen is blue.
Then it's not air, it's a liquid in a bowl, you surmise as having been 'air'.

I'm pretty sure Plato, Newton, or Darwin ever "saw air". Does that mean that air didn't exist in their time? No, we developed knowledge of something we couldn't before. We couldn't 'see' or even detect quarks before the 20th century, I guess that means that they didn't exist before then? You know FOR A FACT that nothing else exists anywhere else in existence that YOU have not seen or heard - so there are no other universes. There is nothing beyond this 14billion LY diameter bubble. Nothing we haven't already discovered? You know what dark matter and Dark energy are? what are they?
Wow, I guess we've gone as far as we can, we should just lay down and die because there is nothing left to do or discover. If you want to know anything just ask Imaginos1892 he is all-knowing.
I for one don't know everything, but I do know my tinny human brain could neither store nor process that much information, So I know that what I do know doesn't even qualify as a tinny fraction of what actually is.

Anyway - WAY OFF TOPIC - as stated, this topic is not to question the validity but the meaning. Any other posts need to be taken elsewhere.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:02 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:We most certainly can see air. Chill it to -220 degrees and it condenses into liquid nitrogen and liquid oxygen. You can see the difference because the liquid oxygen is blue.
Then it's not air, it's a liquid in a bowl, you surmise as having been 'air'.

So you would deny that nitrogen and oxygen are the primary constituents of air, and that they can be liquified at low temperature, even though that fact has been known since 1883. I see.

All right, even without forcing that fact into your head there are many other things I can do with air to prove it exists. I can heat air, cool it, compress it, expand it, evaporate water into it and condense it back out. I can trap air in a submerged container and watch it bubble to the surface. I can introduce you to the tires on your car. I can build a compressed-air cannon, stand you up in front of it and demonstrate conclusively that air exists when it knocks you on your ass.

You, on the other hand, have no such evidence to present.

MAD-4A wrote:We couldn't 'see' or even detect quarks before the 20th century, I guess that means that they didn't exist before then? You know FOR A FACT that nothing else exists anywhere else in existence that YOU have not seen or heard - so there are no other universes. There is nothing beyond this 14billion LY diameter bubble. Nothing we haven't already discovered? You know what dark matter and Dark energy are? what are they?

Did you actually read what I wrote? Did you understand it? I’m sure there are billions of facts that nobody on this planet knows yet. They are facts none the less. By the way, that observable 'bubble' is 13.7 billion light-years in radius, not diameter. We do not know what is outside of it, if anything. The only way to find those facts is through scientific inquiry. Reading and re-reading some collection of ancient mythology will never reveal them. Indeed, it will prevent us from finding facts that the 'True Believers' Just Know are 'wrong'.

The Christian faiths in particular have devoted a great deal of effort and considerable resources to denying facts they find inconvenient.

I have never claimed to be ‘all-knowing’, or to know ‘FOR A FACT’ that your wildly improbable god does not exist; I have only said that you have shown no evidence that he does. In the absence of any such evidence, believing those ancient myths is irrational, and this topic’s intended purpose is a waste of time and bits.
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I used to live on a farm. I know what bullshit smells like.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Daryl   » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:47 pm

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Actually I've seen air. If you travel in a hot climate you can see waves of heat rising off the ground, shimmering in the sunlight. Hot machinery has the same effect. So I believe in air. I wish I could believe in a deity as it would be comforting, and eternal life not a bad side effect, but my mind is not constructed that way.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by pappilon   » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:41 am

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MAD-4A wrote:Anyway - WAY OFF TOPIC - as stated, this topic is not to question the validity but the meaning. Any other posts need to be taken elsewhere.


If there is no validity to the text, can there even be meaning? all of the argument seems to go to that issue. If the text is a treatise on morality, then you are saying that the leaders of a secular nation whose founders claimed some historical basis. You are saying, therefore, that they are acting immorally?

Excuse me for being somewhat confused.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:19 pm

cthia
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pappilon wrote:
MAD-4A wrote:Anyway - WAY OFF TOPIC - as stated, this topic is not to question the validity but the meaning. Any other posts need to be taken elsewhere.


If there is no validity to the text, can there even be meaning? all of the argument seems to go to that issue. If the text is a treatise on morality, then you are saying that the leaders of a secular nation whose founders claimed some historical basis. You are saying, therefore, that they are acting immorally?

Excuse me for being somewhat confused.


Many claim that there is a lack of evidence that there is a God. There is also a lack of crucifying evidence against.

Again, I call all nonbelievers to the scientific facts obtained the old-fashioned way -- by research, which illuminates the fact that 74 % of Americans believe in God.

84% of the world's population has faith. Only 14 % do not.

I find it really rather arrogant that you 14 % are against the overwhelming collective consciousness. Statistically. And, well, statistics is a part of the very science that your wobbly legs stand on.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Michael Everett   » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:54 pm

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cthia wrote:
pappilon wrote:I find it really rather arrogant that you 14 % are against the overwhelming collective consciousness. Statistically. And, well, statistics is a part of the very science that your wobbly legs stand on.

Oddly, progress in most fields tends to come via those who stand up to the majority view.
The Bible would still be available only in Latin if not for the actions of Martin Luther (author of the Ninety-Five Thesis and unwitting founder of the Protestant Church) who translated the Bible from Latin into German so that the general public could read it in their native tongue. This eventually led to the Bible being translated into almost every single language in the world and many other religious texts being translated also.
Charles Darwin promulgated the Theory of Evolution, which the majority of people at the time believed was wrong since it was obvious that God began creating everything on Oct 23rd 4004BC (yep, someone actually sat down and calculated it from the Bible) and despite the breeding of wolves into dogs and the directed breeding of farmstock, they refused to believe that things could change (or rather, that things could change without a Superior Intelligence directing them).
Progress comes not from looking at what you already know and thinking that it is all there is but in looking for that which you do not know and asking the six great questions. Who? How? Why? What? When? Where?

Oddly, people can be right for the wrong reasons. One Greek Philosopher proposed the-then unthinkable idea that the Earth revolved around the sun. His reasoning? Fire is nobler than Earth and the center is a nobler position than the edge, so since Fire was nobler, it had to be in the center, meaning that it had to be the Earth moving around the Sun. Q.E.D.
At the time, he was seen as being totally wrong by most of the other philosophers. Nowadays... well, he hit the right result, but only by accident.

To those that claim that God exists, you might very well be right, but your logic which led you to that conclusion may be completely wrong...
Always remember, look underneath the underneath...
Bonus point to anyone who knows which series I cribbed that final line from...
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I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
ACNH Dreams at DA-6594-0940-7995
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