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Irreducible complication

For anyone who might want to have a side conversation...you're welcome here!
Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Daryl   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:41 am

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You seem to have missed my whole point, either deliberately or because your faith has blinded you. To a rationalist there is no point answering my question with "the Bible says", because I'm challenging the validity of that book. Plus I'm trying to get through to you that if there actually was a godhead of sorts, the likelihood of it being in any way related to your version is most unlikely, and it is hubris to believe your version is the only one to be considered.


DDHv wrote:
Daryl wrote:snip
The sort of epiphany that did come, is that there is something really impious about anyone trying to take ownership of a postulated godhead. Then telling everyone that they alone know, and that this only god wants XYZ, and we have to do ABC to get its favour.
The biblical view is that God gives his mercy, grace, and favor without obedience on our part. He just limits it to those who trust Him, which is within His rights. Part of the confusion likely comes because those who trust Him are likely to want to please Him, as a thank you, and so live at least a little differently.
Particularly ridiculous when based on millennia old oral traditions of itinerate goat herders, who probably never met more than a hundred people in their short brutal lives.
It then becomes tragic, when different groups decide to prove this revelation, by killing all who disagree.

Archeologists report that Canaan, at the time of Abraham, had many trade routes through it, and Abraham came from Ur, which was not wilderness, but one of the centers of the civilization of that day. Egypt, at the time of Joseph, Moses, et al. was another of said centers of civilization. Illiterate, they were not. I strongly agree on the killing part - defense makes sense, killing without good reason does not. Note that the Bible has a four hundred year delay before the conquest of Canaan, specifically because the Canaanites had not yet become wicked enough for God to bring the children of Israel in to replace them(Genesis 15:13>16). Also note that He passed through the divided animals without Abraham, which according to the archeologists meant that He took all responsibility for fulfillment of that covenant, in spite of Abraham's sins. The confluence of trade routes and the resulting strategic position may be one reason for the location: when Israel strayed, the Bible speaks of Him removing His protection, even encouraging invaders. The promises state plainly that the people would not end, but could be thrown out of the land, for cause. If you can describe others who survived as a people for over ten generations exile, having no homeland, please do so.

Back to irreducible complexity.
From: http://www.nature.com/ncb/journal/v18/n ... b3347.html
Here, we establish an in vitro system to culture human embryos through implantation stages in the absence of maternal tissues and reveal the key events of early human morphogenesis. These include segregation of the pluripotent embryonic and extra-embryonic lineages, and morphogenetic rearrangements leading to generation of a bilaminar disc, formation of a pro-amniotic cavity within the embryonic lineage, appearance of the prospective yolk sac, and trophoblast differentiation. Using human embryos and human pluripotent stem cells, we show that the reorganization of the embryonic lineage is mediated by cellular polarization leading to cavity formation. Together, our results indicate that the critical remodelling events at this stage of human development are embryo-autonomous, highlighting the remarkable and unanticipated self-organizing properties of human embryos.

Perhaps uterine replicators can be invented sooner than we think! At present, we don't have more than the beginnings of what is needed.
From: http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/ ... 19-6644085
snip
In the lab where I work, we study cell division. As scientists, my colleagues must concede that embryos are made up of living cells, but they don’t accept the embryo as a living organism. If the early embryo is “just a clump of cells,” then you can justify abortion.
snip
On one hand, the data show that these embryos are autonomous human beings who are simply in an early stage of development. On the other hand, the licensing ethics boards and authors themselves justify the destruction of these embryos by categorizing them as the property of the couples who donated them. The authors act as if the embryos’ empirically verified capacity for autonomous development need not translate to the recognition of the autonomy of human embryos.
snip

Worldview has consequences, including disconnects from strict rationality. They chose to use human embryos, as well as animal embryos. Are children the property of their parents, or are they their privilege and responsibility
:?:
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:16 am

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DDHv wrote:The biblical view

Which Bible would that be? There's quite a few versions that differ from each other enough to be classified as different books in English alone! And that isn't getting into the whole language translation/original Aramaic/official Latin parts!
Plus there were quite a few biblical books which the Catholic Church declared to be non-canon. Do those still have any relevance? How different would the Bible be if they hadn't been cut out?

Once you look at the history of the Bible, you may note that the sheer number of versions, revisions, translations and modifications mean that modern Bibles bear only some similarities to the old scrolls that they are based on.

Unless you go all the way back to the original version, the foundation of Intelligent Design et al is inherently flawed.
Who these days still believes James Ussher's calculation that God created Heaven and Earth on October 23rd 4004 BC?

So I ask again, which Bible?
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:06 am

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Daryl wrote:You seem to have missed my whole point, either deliberately or because your faith has blinded you. To a rationalist there is no point answering my question with "the Bible says", because I'm challenging the validity of that book. Plus I'm trying to get through to you that if there actually was a godhead of sorts, the likelihood of it being in any way related to your version is most unlikely, and it is hubris to believe your version is the only one to be considered.


The Bible acts as a standard of morality. Challenging the validity of the Bible is fine, but then you are left with two options. Option one is asserting that there is no objective measure of morality. Option 2 is to assert another paradigm for an objective measure of morality and a rationalists reasoning why it is superior. Absent doing either, simply challenging the validity of The Book is pointless.

Assuming there is a godhead of sorts as you posit, it is incumbent for each of us to discover what he/she/it wants from us. Making this assumption further assumes that the godhead actually created existence. Seeking Truth leads the seeker to be persuaded by the evidence he/she gathers to some conclusions. We seekers can become convinced of the Truth. We can become convinced that other religions tenets are misguided and in many cases evil. The religious requirement of subjugating humanity under Sharia Law is a case in point.

Because those of us who believe in religion are persuaded that our view is correct, it does not mean we are correct. The vast majority of believers understand this. Christians have Faith to ameliorate that possibility, which helps quite a bit.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:24 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The Bible acts as a standard of morality. Challenging the validity of the Bible is fine, but then you are left with two options. Option one is asserting that there is no objective measure of morality. Option 2 is to assert another paradigm for an objective measure of morality and a rationalists reasoning why it is superior. Absent doing either, simply challenging the validity of The Book is pointless.


Right. So, anyone who isn´t christian cannot by definition have any morality.

Riiight.

PeterZ wrote:Because those of us who believe in religion are persuaded that our view is correct, it does not mean we are correct. The vast majority of believers understand this.


It´s rather blatantly obvious, that NO you do NOT.

PeterZ wrote:Christians have Faith to ameliorate that possibility, which helps quite a bit.


:lol:
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Daryl   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:09 pm

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My dog is smart for a dog, but I doubt he has read the bible or any other texts. However he is a well intentioned being, and quite obviously tries to do the right thing. If he upsets anyone with his youthful exuberance, you can see he is upset and doesn't do that again. Good people don't need morality imposed from outside, as we have our own moral compass.
I can still, after more than fifty years, remember being beaten by monks at my christian boarding school, because they were determined to make me accept their twisted values. Funny how over time it was my intrinsic values not theirs that have become mainstream.
The bible has some really out there stuff, as does the koran, about stoning adulterous women, and executing drunks. There are some good websites that list this premedievial horror show, so you don't have to wade through the rest to find it.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:30 pm

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How do you know what the right thing is? Does the moral compass of someone willing to subjugate young ladies like my daughters compare favorably or unfavorably with yours or my compass? How does one make the comparison? What characteristics drive any comparison?

Simply stating that a moral compass is equal to another even if neither share a common referent is pretty useless.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:55 pm

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How do you know what the right thing is?


Unless you´re a sociopath, you SHOULD be able to figure that out on your own.
Or at least reach a vague approximation of it.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Daryl   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:22 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
How do you know what the right thing is?


Unless you´re a sociopath, you SHOULD be able to figure that out on your own.
Or at least reach a vague approximation of it.

The devil is in the detail, but overall (unless you are a sociopath or have been indoctrinated by a nasty religion or society) people tend to understand what is right and what is wrong.
At core I believd in equal rights for all, and to treat everyone with respect unless they prove not to be worth it.
An example of the detail would be that a naturally progressive person like me might decide that treating people equally included some assistance to those disadvantaged by prejudice in society, while a conservative would say equal means exactly that.
I try to behave ethically, right down to not dealing with companies who treat their staff or the environment badly.
I'm not fond of any religion, regarding them all as long running con tricks set up for their priestly castes, but Islam in particular is furtherest from my values. However freedom of religion (like speech) is an important principle, although only if they don't harm people.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:05 am

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No definitions, yet judgement is passed. What inherently makes your progressive values worth holding? Religious doctrine is not under discussion. We won't agree on that. Your prior post asserted that good behavior doesn't need a moral compass. Ok, why not?

Good people know how to behave. Why? What does good mean? Again and again you posit an intuitive understanding that good people recognize what good behaviour is without being able to describe or define good. My underlying point is that what you assert amounts to good behaviour is what I agree with. Bad behaviour is what I disagree with.

How different is this from the religions you dislike so much? Both assert their values over others.
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Re: Irreducible complication
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:08 pm

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What you are really looking for is a human source of morality, derived by logic and reason and not depending on some outside agency, be it real or fantasy. I've done some thinking on the subject. A successful moral code can be derived from just two axioms:
Life is good.

If it's not, there's no point even trying to formulate a moral code.
Fair is fair.

A workable morality must be applied equally to everybody.

Murder completely violates the first axiom. Assault, theft, rape and slavery all violate it in smaller ways. Discrimination and intolerance violate the second axiom. And since most religions are based on discrimination and intolerance...
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